.45 "Marine Load"

[mr alexander]

"On the other hand I won't dare to use primers which are specifically designed for magnum loads only (or at least advertised as such)."

Why the hell not? The point is to get MORE pressure and more complete powder burning.

Rover,

It all depends on whose primer one is planning to use. As Clarence has correctly stated, Winchester Large Pistol Primers are designed

for both Standard and Magnum loads. This is clearly stated on the factory packaging. I still have some CCI #350 Large Pistol Magnum

Primers left over from my Model 29 days. I contacted CCI about using them up in my Bullseye loads. Was emphatically told NOT TO

DO SO! If ever in doubt, check a reloading manual. Better yet, call the manufacturer of your components.


I agree with all of the points raised by Gort, but would like to add one more. Large Pistol and Large Rifle Primers have the same

SAAMI specifications with regard to their outside diameters, which can vary from 0.2105 - 0.2130 inches. They differ when it comes

to their allowable heights. Large Pistol Primers can be from 0.115 - 0.125 inches. Large Rifle Primers can be from 0.123 - 0.133

inches. Note how there's an 0.008" difference between them when comparing their maximum heights. To me, that's HUGE. Large Rifle

Primers in a .45ACP case would "stick out like a sore thumb".


BenEnglishTX, "Fed. LR primer"? "Or does LR stand for something else?". Am guessing here, but I think that "LR" is probably just

Christopher Miceli's way of abbreviating "Large". Maybe he uses "SM" to designate Small Primers?


Note: Primer dimensions were obtained from "Sinclair International's Precision Reloading and Shooting Handbook, 10th Edition, 1999".

[BenEnglishTX]

BenEnglishTX, "Fed. LR primer"? "Or does LR stand for something else?". Am guessing here, but I think that "LR" is probably just Christopher Miceli's way of abbreviating "Large". Maybe he uses "SM" to designate Small Primers?

That's certainly possible but, you must admit, it's confusing.

Over the last half-century, I've seen "Large" abbreviated as "L", "LG", "LRG", "LGE", and "LA". I've never seen it abbreviated as "LR". OTOH, when talking about primers, I've never seen "LR" mean anything other than "Large Rifle".

My theory is that it's merely a typo, a mistake; he meant to write "LP". That's the simplest explanation.

Either way, I thought I'd ask.

[mr alexander]

This will probably be a dumb question but it's bugging me so I'll go ahead and show off my ignorance again.

BenEnglishTX,

I for one believe that the only dumb question is the one that isn't asked. And yes, you are correct about the various ways

that the word "Large" is abbreviated. To be honest, I never even noticed the "LR" primer designation in Christopher Miceli's

photo. By asking about this, you raised an excellent point; one should only use the correct components when reloading ammo.

[Rover]

You might be idly interested to know that both Clarence Perkins and myself use Small Magnum pistol primers in our .38 target loads. I've never bothered with them in a .45, but I have used Magnum large pistol with 11 grain Bullseye loads in my S&W .44 Mag.

[C. Perkins]

Rover is correct.

I do use a WSPM primer in my M52-1 for the long line.
2.8gr Bullseye under a 148gr Remington HBWC using Winchester small pistol magnum primers.
I get a better burn and in my pistol, better long line scores.
YMMV :)
Not a scientific study, but everyone claims Bullseye is dirty.
After shooting a 900 my right arm is covered in unburned powder flakes.
Switched to magnum primer and now less unburned powder on my arm and better scores.
NOTE: this is with a very mild .38 full wadcutter load.
Posting a pic of my last 2700 score card in centerfire using the M52.

Disclaimer;
I do not shoot any where as much as I used to in Phoenix with Rover and my scores show it.

A 97 with 7x shooting a 7 on the first shot.
Should of kept the target, but covered it up and drove on cause I know that I can do better.

[Ttgoods]

4.2 or more with VV310 that bullet likes to go fast.

[cnnhead]

I've just learned something new about primers. I replaced CCI300 regular primers with Fiocchi Large Pistol and the muzzle velocity dropped even lower. With 4.2gr of N310 and a CCI primer I was able to get ca. 730fps. The same load with a Fiocchi primer accelerates the bullet to barely 660fps! Even with 10lbs recoil spring the gun didn't cycle properly. Quite amazing, I didn't expect such a difference.

I wish I could buy Winchester primers but they seem to be difficult to find in my country. I guess I should follow Rover's advice and try magnum primers (at least I can get CCI350 easily here).

[mr alexander]

I guess I should follow Rover's advice and try magnum primers (at least I can get CCI350 easily here).

cnnhead,

With all due respect to "Rover", I would never use a magnum primer with any .45 ACP load. As stated in a previous post, I contacted

CCI about substituting their #350 Large Pistol Magnum Primers in my favorite Bullseye load. I was strongly advised not to do so. Was

told that in a .45 ACP case, their Magnum Primer will over-ignite the powder, causing all of it to burn simultaneously. This will result

in creating excessively high pressures. Out of curiousity, I also called Sierra Bullets and Hodgdon Powder Company about this. All 3

of these firms provided the same warning. I was even told that no one in the industry has ever compiled reloading data for the

.45 ACP using Magnum Primers, due to the inherent danger of doing so. Zachowuja ostroznosc (dbac) moj przyjaciel!

That's Polish for: "Be careful, my friend!"

[Rover]

"Was told that in a .45 ACP case, their Magnum Primer will over-ignite the powder, causing all of it to burn simultaneously."

"over-ignite"? Hell, that's exactly what we're trying to do, since "normal" ignition is not working for the guy.

The gun is NOT going to blow up with target loads.

[mr alexander]

Rover,



"Was told that in a .45 ACP case, their Magnum Primer will over-ignite the powder, causing all of it to burn simultaneously".

The CCI Tech stated that, in order to maintain safe pressures, the powder must burn progressively and not simultaneously.

In order for this to occur, he said that only their Standard Large Pistol Primer should be used in a .45 ACP load, specifically the CCI #300.



"over-ignite"? Hell, that's exactly what we're trying to do, since "normal" ignition is not working for the guy.

So, resorting to a load that will create excessively high pressures is the correct course of action to take?

I think cnnhead should try some other, safer approach in order to solve his problem.



"The gun is NOT going to blow up with target loads".

Even if the gun is Not going to blow up, just what will using loads that generate excessively high pressures do to it over time?



Remember the tagline from the old TV commercial for a famous financial services firm? It went: "When E. F. Hutton talks, people listen".

Well, "When CCI, Sierra Bullets and Hodgdon Powder Company talk, mr alexander listens!"

These 3 companies maintain state of the art test facilities. Just how sophisticated is the equipment in your ballistics lab?

[Dipnet]

I've read that AMU team determined that this load, using either Nosler or Zero JHP 185 gr bullets, was more accurate at ~higher velocities. My load is 4.7gr VV N310, Fed (or Win) primers, OAL: 1.20, crimp 0.469. Out of my 6" Rock River, this load is right on the money at 50 yards, but shoots a bit hight on the short line (top edge 10-ring). At 50 yards, if you call your shot dead center, more often than not, there is a hole in the x-ring. That load averages about 850 fps.

For the short line, I'm using Zero 185-gr HP LSWC (using 3.8 grs. BE, OAL: 1.18, crimp 0.469, also with Starline brass). This load produces an enlarged one-hole group at 25 yds, but also hits a little high. I am about to try reduced charges of 3.5 or 3.6 grs of BE (in lieu of adjusting scope). The 3.8 gr. BE velocities ran between 691 to 716, sd=10.1. I tried the same recipe, but using VV N310 and the load was not near as accurate (group=3.4", 706-790 fps, sd=27.4). I recently bought 500 Starline +P brass (on sale) and ammo loaded with that brass seems to be more consistent (more uniform case volume?). Don't know if this is real or imagined.

One last thing I read was the AMU obtained the best accuracy when using factory bullets (Alanta Arms) or handholds using new brass. I don't know what difference existed, but I am certainly not good enough to worry about it. (Sorry, I do not recall source of info). Cheers, dipnet

[Rover]

"The gun is NOT going to blow up with target loads".

"Even if the gun is Not going to blow up, just what will using loads that generate excessively high pressures do to it over time?

Excessively high pressures? Ridiculous!

[big mouse]

I see that some shooters are using magnum primers in their .38 target loads. Has anyone ever tried using CCI #350 magnum primers in their .45 bullseye ammo? If so, how well did it perform for you? Was there an increase in accuracy? Is this a safe practice to follow with this round?

[nglitz]

Amazing all the dire warnings about magnum primers from people who admit never having used them, including the various company techs. When the primer shortage was in full effect, all I could get was Federal Large Pistol Magnum primers for my bullseye loads. They work fine. No increased pressure signs, no apparent increase in recoil and the same velocities over a chronograph. No change in my load of 3.8 grains of Clays under a 195 gr LSWC..

I've shot probably 3500 of them so far. 1500 to go before I need to get more.

[Dipnet]

I've read that magnum primers are only likely a concern if a load is at maximum recommended charge, and completely agree with Rover that magnum primers should have little effect regarding traditional in BE loads. There could be a theoretical benefit if a particular powder is position sensitive, but I don't know what those powders are; besides, it is bad form to shoot the ground, the roof, or the bench.

I have picked up range brass in which somebody greatly enlarged the flash hole, I'm guessing an attempt to increase uniform ignition/pressures?

All my bullets go bang and most spent cases anemically land in the brass catching net. Every now and then I drag out the chromo and recently noticed that the +p Starline brass was producing more consistent SD's. Dunno if real or not; the only difference in +P brass is a thicker case area just above the rim and at the base of the case wall. When trying to understand what variables are the most important contributors to consistency, you have to experimentally compare the effects of different OALs and crimp, as well as usual primer types, charge weight, bullet types (and weight), and cases. Too much like work and that pickiness is not necessary for 45ACP. I do know a statistician who would probably enjoy that, but working with him would be enduring an unending tirade of old, jokes, clean jokes, and corny puns.

Better to spend time practicing the fundamentals and working not he mental aspects of the game. Now, loading the 32 ACP well is another matter and pickiness is helpful. However, life is ever so brief; then we are dead for an extraordinarily long time. Shoot more, laugh more, be safe, dipnet

[BenEnglishTX]

Off Topic Warning

I have picked up range brass in which somebody greatly enlarged the flash hole, I'm guessing an attempt to increase uniform ignition/pressures?

If it was .45ACP brass then that's somebody who likes to experiment far more than I do.

OTOH, in traditional rimmed revolver cartridges this is usually done by folks who regularly fire primers in empty cases. Flash holes need to be drilled out so that the primers don't back out of the cases and bind against the recoil shield of the revolver being used.

If, as an exhibition shooter, you spend all your time dressed like something out of a '50s western and twirling your Colt SAAs with just an occasional need for a little noise to punctuate your performance, you will definitely drill out all your flash holes.

I realize that not too many people make their living as a cowboy exhibition shooter these days but there was a time when even a gas station opening might hire one. I've seen it. To tell the truth, I sorta miss those days.

[Dipnet]

I lived in Tucson in the 1950s and loved going to 'Old Tombstone' to see any or all of the 10:00, Noon, 2:00, or 4:00PM gun fights at the OK Corral and dearly wanted to find a real spent 'cowboy' bullet. (I guess with so many shoot outs, I figured there ought to be some bullets laying around here somewhere). So I have fond memories of performance cowboys and loved it. Back then my favorite toy was a Fanner 50, with which I daily practiced the fast draw, and fancy gun handling.

An unrelated 'western' memory was when Mom used to teach horseback riding to 'dudes' and every Sunday we'd go for a ride in the Sonoran Desert to eat breakfast at a little diner where local cow hands ate. I carefully watched what the real cowboys would eat and for years my favorite breakfast was two flapjacks with an easy over in the middle, covered with bacon and blueberry syrup, with a side of hash browns. Mom would hire a local ranch hand to help when she had a bunch of dudes, and on one occasion returning from the diner (about an hours' ride each way), something spooked a woman's horse and she was thrown, grazing a cholla on the way down. There are also known as jumping cactus; just a slight careless brush against one causes a thorny segment to break off, sticking you many times.

Every south-westerner knows what this very nasty cactus. The wrangler produced a needle nose pliers, had the lady lay over his lap, and proceeded to yank spines out of her rear end for what seemed like eternity, each spine yanked was punctuated with a yelp. I distracted myself by chasing lizards. I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but remembering Old Tombstone caused my thoughts to segue to the shoot out with the cactus. Cheers to all, dipnet

[Chris F]

One last thing I read was the AMU obtained the best accuracy when using factory bullets (Alanta Arms) or handholds using new brass. I don't know what difference existed, but I am certainly not good enough to worry about it. (Sorry, I do not recall source of info). Cheers, dipnet

Hi Gang,
Rifle shooter that stumbled onto this discussion accidentally. I can tell you that I've been that said multiple times regarding the AMU's rifle loads. First time I'd seen it was in Precision Shooting. I believe the last couple were by Emil Praslick on the National Match board, and in SSUSA. I won't bore you with the explanation of the "why"'s since this is a pistol discussion. I've never seen that statement applied to pistol.

[jmdavis]

http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2015/08/b ... uracy.html

Also the AMU did a brass life post on Facebook, I think, last year some time.

[Murph]

http://tonybrong.blogspot.com/2015/08/b ... uracy.html

Also the AMU did a brass life post on Facebook, I think, last year some time.

I use a close version of this "Marine load" almost exclusively. N310, JHP 185, 4.2-4.5, etc. Its awesome and that powder is super clean and meters very accurate.

To elaborate on the brass life comment....I have a batch of brass that I am still shooting right now and I have fired it 11 or 12 times already and I still have not seen one split. I do not "over work" the brass during the sizing and loading and only bell the top just the minimum amount to allow that JHP to just barely sit in it before setting it. This load of brass (all Federal) still looks excellent. I am saving a bucket of once fired that I have and I will work that into the rotation when I finally see this lot wear out. I only use mixed brass sometimes for practice.