ISSF Report - Summary of IOC Sports Department - ISSF Mtg

[pcw]

Oh, I would like to add that I really do think that long term, precision shooting is very inexpencive, especially AP and AR. The initial buy in is higher than a lot of sports, but after that the costs are negligable. My family has probibly spent more on soccer cleats then I have on shooting equiptment after the purchase of the rifles.

[john bickar]

A predictable response. But, if you got rid of the special clothing, the rifles would evolve to be lighter and the positions less stressful on the body.

But to get to that point you need to get all the people currently competing to replace every single piece of gear they own (and all bar the rifles would have no resale value). You're talking about trying to attract new competitors by inflicting financial losses on the people who already participate. I can't imagine there being much support for that.

Besides, there are already sports which fit the "almost no gear, light rifle" niche (gallery rifle & silhouette shooting for example) and people who want to shoot like that already do.

Response from the international rifle community when the ISSF changed the rules for rapid fire pistol in 2005, causing thousands of .22 short rapid fire pistols to have "no resale value":

*crickets*

[JamesH]

Introducing some element of snap shooting, turning targets etc would make rifle shooting 10 times more interesting.

10 Times not a lot is still not a whole lot but there you go.

It seems 'the pinnacle of each sport' has given over to 'whatever looks good on TV', we adapt or die.

Yes, now we're talking. A rifle version of sport pistol shot with these: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=52523

Sure, why not. People want to see something dynamic.

Clay shooting, biathlon, rapid fire - they're dynamic and moderately interesting to watch.
No other sport has any kind of event where remaining as motionless as possible is the objective.
"And now we go to the gymnastics hall to see 20 people compete in the one hour not moving event. Dial gauges will be used"

Long range rifle shooting - I think the average person can see the point.
Short range rifle shooting in a strait-jacket and trousers - its incomprehensible to most.

But to get to that point you need to get all the people currently competing to replace every single piece of gear they own (and all bar the rifles would have no resale value). You're talking about trying to attract new competitors by inflicting financial losses on the people who already participate. I can't imagine there being much support for that.

The sunk-cost fallacy. There would be no financial losses inflicted. the money has already spent, custom fitted clothes don't have much of a resale value, just equipment which would not longer be used.
Its not like rapid fire pistols which had to be replaced with new ones overnight.

A tongue in cheek answer would be to create summer biathlon. Let people shoot in whatever clothes they choose to run in.

If it were me:

Leave prone rifle as it is.

Add snap shooting to standing/3P rifle

Add summer biathlon

[randy1952]

It's very true that people will find the money to do the things that they want. It's also true that the infrastructures around you can contribute to expence or lack of expence to do those things. The 4H shooting program I helped with seemed to attract the kids from the most impoverished families in the very poor area I live in. I think that it was due to the fact that the program was free and the hunting/fishing orientation of the parents. I had hoped to take some of the energy the kids had for deer hunting and guns, and focus it on shooting and getting them to understand focus, discipline and concentration. I would have been starting the program from scratch and the closest precision shooting clubs in the area are over 3 hours away. I had experience in precision shooting from a CMP/NRA program I was in as a kid in the 70's, one of the other instuctors had shot silhouette for years and the third was mostly a hunter. Trying to start up a program with so little support was daunting, but I was willing to try until I started looking at the costs for the parents. I'm sure the if a kid in need walked in to one of the larger precision programs they could easily be set up for very little money, that wasn't the case here.

Noel brings up skiing which is another case of infrastructure. I help with both Alpine and Nordic ski programs and in my area it is remarkably cheep or free to outfit a kid in ski gear. There are also numerous scholarships available. All the local mountains have 6 week lessons for about 50 bucks and very reduce ticket prices after the lessons. We also have a community ski hill where the cost of a Family season pass is 65 bucks. I'm often given more race skis than I can find homes for. The families that came to our shooting progam were the the ones who still couldn't afford to ski. It has always seemed remakable that a half hour drive south is a competely different economic zone, but thats where the main ski areas are.

I enjoyed the shooting program I was in as a kid so much and I was really hoping to introduce others to precision shooting, at this point it just isn't fiscally possible in this area.

I feel for you, I have gone through the same thing in my area. Your program will take time, persistence, and your program will only grow to certain size. I don't get more then a handful of kids to participate for the same reasons. Equipment wise I wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the Friends of the NRA and a couple of businesses who are willing to donate a few dollars. It has taken me years to build up this program to have the capability to start training larger groups of kids.

You will also need to get those kids and parents involved in helping you raise money by getting out and holding yard sales, raffles, and etc. One of the local scout troop bands together with a couple of other troops and they raise about $10,000 to $15,000 a year. If you can get help for the Friends of the NRA then it will go a long way in helping finance your program. There are a few programs that have found local benefactors to help out. You shouldn't offer the program totally free to people no matter low the economy is in the area. I have done that in my area and I found that many of them will start taking advantage of your program and start acting like welfare queens. I found that even the ones you get who are fairly well to do don't act any different. That is why you need to get them involved in helping you raise money.

Skiing is one of the most expensive sports a person can participate. The shooting sports are expensive, but it doesn't hold a candle compared to skiing. The bottom line for you is that starting and running a program is time consuming and it will take some one who is in it for the long run. Starting the program is the hardest because of the need in getting the resources and you'll need to get out and talk to groups or to individuals that can help you get the program going in other words lots of work.

[IRLConor]

Response from the international rifle community when the ISSF changed the rules for rapid fire pistol in 2005, causing thousands of .22 short rapid fire pistols to have "no resale value":

*crickets*

To be honest, I don't expect the pistol side of the ISSF world to spend much time trying to save FR60PR. They've enough on their hands trying to save free pistol.

A tongue in cheek answer would be to create summer biathlon. Let people shoot in whatever clothes they choose to run in.

ISSF Target Sprint?

[randy1952]

Response from the international rifle community when the ISSF changed the rules for rapid fire pistol in 2005, causing thousands of .22 short rapid fire pistols to have "no resale value":

*crickets*

To be honest, I don't expect the pistol side of the ISSF world to spend much time trying to save FR60PR. They've enough on their hands trying to save free pistol.

A tongue in cheek answer would be to create summer biathlon. Let people shoot in whatever clothes they choose to run in.

ISSF Target Sprint?

I wish we could add another shooting sport, but the IOC wants to reduce shooting events in favor of more TV events like dancing. The hand writing is on the wall for the shooting sports and the ISSF effort by trying to intro lasers or making the finals more complicated will at best will only make a marginal difference. I believe that the biggest problem is marketing 101. You need to get more people interested in shooting and make them aware of shooting, especially in the Olympics. We have millions of people in the US that don't even know that shooting is an Olympic sport. If you don't do this then tweaking the rules or introducing laser will not help the shooting sport in the end.

I don't have any real statistics, but I have been shooting since I was a little kid and from my observations over the years is that less and less people every year aren't involved, interested, or care about growing the shooting sports. Yes many people in this country are buying more guns, but most of these people buy the guns stick them in their draws or closets and rarely use them. I worked at an indoor range at a local gun store and many of them don't even have the basic skill in handling their guns properly. My conversations with these gun owners about Olympic shooting events and most them were completely unaware of the summer shooting events. The only Olympic shooting event they were aware of for some unknown reason was Biathlon.

The ISSF or Olympic Committee aren't going to help solve this problem. It will be up to all the gun owners to solve the problem by talking to people gun-owners and nongun-owners about the sport and if necessary take them out shooting, especially the nongun-owners. You need to counter the false propaganda being put out by the governments and the media, which is that owning a gun is bad. If you don't refute all the negative propaganda then in end the sport will disappear. The taxpayers in this country are paying for an education system that is largely teaching these kids from kindergarten all the way through the university or college level the message the evil of owning a gun. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said 'If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.'

[David Levene]

..... and the ISSF effort by trying to intro lasers .....

I don't know where you got that idea from. As I understand it the ISSF are fighting AGAINST lasers.

[randy1952]

..... and the ISSF effort by trying to intro lasers .....

I don't know where you got that idea from. As I understand it the ISSF are fighting AGAINST lasers.

Yes your right as of now they are fighting it, but there are some factions that are in favor of introducing it otherwise why is it being asked reconsider it.

[David Levene]

..... and the ISSF effort by trying to intro lasers .....

I don't know where you got that idea from. As I understand it the ISSF are fighting AGAINST lasers.

Yes your right as of now they are fighting it, but there are some factions that are in favor of introducing it otherwise why is it being asked reconsider it.

It's the IOC who are asking about it.

[IRLConor]

I don't have any real statistics, but I have been shooting since I was a little kid and from my observations over the years is that less and less people every year aren't involved, interested, or care about growing the shooting sports. Yes many people in this country are buying more guns, but most of these people buy the guns stick them in their draws or closets and rarely use them. I worked at an indoor range at a local gun store and many of them don't even have the basic skill in handling their guns properly. My conversations with these gun owners about Olympic shooting events and most them were completely unaware of the summer shooting events. The only Olympic shooting event they were aware of for some unknown reason was Biathlon.

The ISSF or Olympic Committee aren't going to help solve this problem. It will be up to all the gun owners to solve the problem by talking to people gun-owners and nongun-owners about the sport and if necessary take them out shooting, especially the nongun-owners. You need to counter the false propaganda being put out by the governments and the media, which is that owning a gun is bad. If you don't refute all the negative propaganda then in end the sport will disappear. The taxpayers in this country are paying for an education system that is largely teaching these kids from kindergarten all the way through the university or college level the message the evil of owning a gun. Joseph Goebbels, Hitler's propaganda minister, once said 'If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.'

I guess I come at it from a very different perspective, living in Ireland. Here the "guns are evil" message has been well embedded for longer than I've been alive. That ship has sailed. The most effective work here over the last decade or so has been to quietly work with the government to avoid further restrictions and to otherwise stay out of the public eye as much as possible. From a gun politics point of view we're still dealing with the aftermath of a 30+ year terrorist insurgency so there have been lots of good reasons to control civilian access to firearms. Also, over here historically the conservative parties have been the ones most active in restricting access to firearms so it's quite different to the USA.

Having said all that (and veering back towards the topic at hand), I believe there are a few problems raise in this thread that need to be tackled separately:

1. The struggle to keep shooting in the Olympics.
2. Growing ISSF shooting in each country.
3. The cost of entry for new participants in ISSF shooting events.

Out of those, only the first actually needs a coordinated, global response and it's squarely the responsibility of the ISSF. They work hard at this. We can argue over and back here about what they should do but realistically any suggestions or objections should be routed through your national governing body. The ISSF is always going to listen more closely to NGBs than to individual shooters so if you want to be effective then direct your suggestions to USA Shooting or their equivalent in your country. Of course, it's still fun to discuss it here, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking we can solve it ourselves.

The other two can only be tackled on a country-by-country basis because they are highly dependent on local issues. Growing ISSF shooting in Ireland is primarily choked by two things: 1) the fact that a lot of gun owners are too old to compete effectively and 2) the fact that airguns are regulated as firearms ("why would I buy an air rifle if it's just as much trouble to buy a .308 and shoot 1,000yd?"). We're tackling the first part by involving the two university rifle clubs as much as possible and tackling the second by a long, slow process of trying to persuade the state to reduce the requirements for licensing an air rifle. Tackling the cost issue here is usually handled by the two college clubs both of which have a decent stock of serviceable gear allowing people to slowly buy gear over a period of years rather than all up front. The strategies for dealing with the last two issues above may be similar in other countries or entirely different, but it's something that has to be dealt with at a local level if it's going to be effective.

[randy1952]

I guess I come at it from a very different perspective, living in Ireland. Here the "guns are evil" message has been well embedded for longer than I've been alive. That ship has sailed. The most effective work here over the last decade or so has been to quietly work with the government to avoid further restrictions and to otherwise stay out of the public eye as much as possible. From a gun politics point of view we're still dealing with the aftermath of a 30+ year terrorist insurgency so there have been lots of good reasons to control civilian access to firearms. Also, over here historically the conservative parties have been the ones most active in restricting access to firearms so it's quite different to the USA.

Having said all that (and veering back towards the topic at hand), I believe there are a few problems raise in this thread that need to be tackled separately:

1. The struggle to keep shooting in the Olympics.
2. Growing ISSF shooting in each country.
3. The cost of entry for new participants in ISSF shooting events.

Out of those, only the first actually needs a coordinated, global response and it's squarely the responsibility of the ISSF. They work hard at this. We can argue over and back here about what they should do but realistically any suggestions or objections should be routed through your national governing body. The ISSF is always going to listen more closely to NGBs than to individual shooters so if you want to be effective then direct your suggestions to USA Shooting or their equivalent in your country. Of course, it's still fun to discuss it here, but let's not delude ourselves into thinking we can solve it ourselves.

The other two can only be tackled on a country-by-country basis because they are highly dependent on local issues. Growing ISSF shooting in Ireland is primarily choked by two things: 1) the fact that a lot of gun owners are too old to compete effectively and 2) the fact that airguns are regulated as firearms ("why would I buy an air rifle if it's just as much trouble to buy a .308 and shoot 1,000yd?"). We're tackling the first part by involving the two university rifle clubs as much as possible and tackling the second by a long, slow process of trying to persuade the state to reduce the requirements for licensing an air rifle. Tackling the cost issue here is usually handled by the two college clubs both of which have a decent stock of serviceable gear allowing people to slowly buy gear over a period of years rather than all up front. The strategies for dealing with the last two issues above may be similar in other countries or entirely different, but it's something that has to be dealt with at a local level if it's going to be effective.[/quote]

I clearly understand your perspective and we are trying to prevent this country from following down that path. The governing body here isn't going to be of much help in fact my discussion with some of them is that they basically told me it is not there problem and they don't have the resources. They basically shoved the problems back into the local clubs and individuals laps so I agree with you that the local clubs and individuals are going to be the one's that solves the problem. That is why getting more people involved will help solved the problem. I do think conditions in your country can be reversed it won't be easy and it will take a long time and effort. Case in point, we have had many anti-gun people come from States like California and by getting those people involved in shooting has had some very successful conversations.

The problem your experiencing of to many older shooters and the bureaucracy and expense of buying gun is exactly what we in the US have been trying to prevent. There are State's like New Jersey that have laws that are similar to the one's in your country. We are starting to see the effects in some of our competitions of old age. The Camp Perry matches one of the largest shooting events in the country is seeing the age effects. The NRA did a survey of the match a few years ago and 80% plus were over 60.

[hundert]

randy1952 is a 100% correct in his reply 5 posts above this one.

people don't know about shooting being an Olympic sport. Yes, in my club very few know... they don't know about ISSF shooting, or air pistol shooting competitions even though they own an air pistol or a rifle. I wrote about it in that other thread of mine.

It's not even about your country. In China, you can't own a firearm. Yifu Wang said in an interview he had to keep his pistol at his club! Yet China's shooting is booming. So much, that they sometimes take half of the gold medals home.

The presentation of sports shooting is terrible. Its image, the lack of new content (youtube is basically empty apart from ISSF videos, which aren't great either). How the hell is someone supposed to know about shooting if you type "Steyr LP1" into youtube's searchbar and there's exactly ZERO videos about the pistol?

sports shooting seems to have forgotten to make the leap on to the new media, internet, youtube. Like an abrupt stop.

I have recently found out there's quite a bit on it on youtube in French. It doesn't help the community much! There's very little in English. I should buy a camera and make a couple of videos and I'm planning on doing it, but I hope others will too.

[JamesH]

The only Olympic shooting event they were aware of for some unknown reason was Biathlon.

We should have a hard think about how everyone seems to know about Winter Olympics Biathlon but not about any other Olympic shooting sports.

Anecdotally people seem to know about:

Biathlon

Clays/skeet

Archery

That's about it.

In my view people can see that Biathlon is a tough physical event where fitness is important, Clays requires skill and movement, archery requires strength and skill.
Shooting does not meet the fitness, strength or movement tests, so it just doesn't look like a sport.
Skill only sports don't cut it, you might as well allow Olympic darts or Tiddlywinks.

And people do watch sports for a bit of excitement, not to be put to sleep.

[pcw]

And thats why we have beach volleyball

[Mike M.]

People know about biathlon because it gets on TV. It's more photogenic. Ski, shoot, ski more.

Shooting's big drawback is partly inherent, but we and many other sports are fighting an uphill battle against NBC Sports...anti-gun bias aside, they are terrible at covering anything outside a handful of sports. The ABC coverage was normally better.

[randy1952]

People know about biathlon because it gets on TV. It's more photogenic. Ski, shoot, ski more.

Shooting's big drawback is partly inherent, but we and many other sports are fighting an uphill battle against NBC Sports...anti-gun bias aside, they are terrible at covering anything outside a handful of sports. The ABC coverage was normally better.

I would agree although the last two Olympic did Televise part of the shooting events they were shown after midnight.

[Spencer]

How much real-time coverage is given to the FIRST Olympic medal awarded by YOUR Olympic broadcaster?
ALL Olympic events are available to your Olympic broadcaster - it is THEIR choice if they take them!

Have you contacted YOUR Olympic broadcaster to ask this question?

If not, WHY not?

[randy1952]

How much real-time coverage is given to the FIRST Olympic medal awarded by YOUR Olympic broadcaster?
ALL Olympic events are available to your Olympic broadcaster - it is THEIR choice if they take them!

Have you contacted YOUR Olympic broadcaster to ask this question?

If not, WHY not?

They have been broadcasting the finals after everybody has gone to bed. If it wasn't for Youtube we wouldn't see much of anything.

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

Surely not "everybody". Only those on the wrong side of the globe...

[randy1952]

Surely not "everybody". Only those on the wrong side of the globe...

I didn't mean it literally, I was just referring to here in the US.