ISSF Report - Summary of IOC Sports Department - ISSF Mtg

[ruig]

Take a look:

Sports governance observer 2015. The legitimacy crisis in international sports governance
Danish Institute for Sports Studies

Pages 9 and 99.
http://www.sv-virnsberg.de/images/conte ... inal_2.pdf
ISSF... Transparency, democracy,... etc.. last place.

Ruth Ann Anderson (Gary Anderson's wife) about ISSF teamleadership:
http://ruthiestales.blogspot.com/2014/0 ... lling.html
Where private interests and sport are melting...
Quote: "By then, Olegario was looking for a corporate lawyer to oversee his expanding businesses in Europe and hired Horst"

They are even unable to pay some prize money from entry fees...

How it should work:
http://www.realbiathlon.com/2015/04/wor ... eason.html

[ruig]

From Pablo Carrera's Facebook timeline:

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[Ricardo]

I just noticed in the Anderson blog that Gary Anderson's son owns Orion, of the scoring system. This 'triangle' does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the ISSF! Reminds me of FIFA. I wonder about these folks other possible conflicts of interest. And Bravo to the Georgian organization! Do we think USAS can take a considered stand like them, or are they more of the "follow the ISSF, no matter what" mindset?

[j-team]

The Georgian proposal suggests increasing the pistol events from 5 to 6. This is NOT going to happen, maybe in our dreams but not in reality, the push from IOC is to reduce shooting events!

Also, it suggests mixed Standard Pistol. Mixed events are NOT going to happen! The whole push is for men and women to go home with EQUAL number of medals, mixed events can't guarantee that, if you check historical scores, men will dominate (except maybe in air rifle, which is quite even).

The problem is we all are passionate about shooting sports and that makes us all want what WE want. The reality is, we are the slaves and IOC are the masters. Our options are to stay and obey or run away. If we choose to run away, then yes, we will become our own masters, but we will be in a very lonely place.

[JJJJJJ]

If IOC really wants equality why don't they start with gymnastics? Lets have woman doing rings and men doing balance beam, obviously that's not going to happen. It's just an excuse to get rid off prone and free in favor of possibly more popular mixed team air events.

All decision is based on popularity and money, simply using equality to sell it.

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

I just noticed in the Anderson blog that Gary Anderson's son owns Orion, of the scoring system. This 'triangle' does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the ISSF!

You can be pretty sure that no other scoring system apart from SIUS will be chosen for important international ISSF competitions, even if there are competitive ones on the market. THAT is a fact to worry about...

And the suggestions of the Georgian Federation don't offer a solution, they increase the problem. To think that male rapid fire shooters and female sport pistol shooters would simply switch to Standard pistol, which is for both a different new discipline, that doesn't help.

[David Levene]

I just noticed in the Anderson blog that Gary Anderson's son owns Orion, of the scoring system. This 'triangle' does not make me feel warm and fuzzy about the ISSF!

Shock, horror, hold the front page. "Son follows Father's interest in a sport and tries to run a business associated with it".

Apart from through Target Talk I doubt whether many shooters outside of the US have even heard of the Orion system, let alone used it.

As far as the ISSF are concerned it will be the last century's technology.

[randy1952]

The Georgian proposal suggests increasing the pistol events from 5 to 6. This is NOT going to happen, maybe in our dreams but not in reality, the push from IOC is to reduce shooting events!

Also, it suggests mixed Standard Pistol. Mixed events are NOT going to happen! The whole push is for men and women to go home with EQUAL number of medals, mixed events can't guarantee that, if you check historical scores, men will dominate (except maybe in air rifle, which is quite even).

The problem is we all are passionate about shooting sports and that makes us all want what WE want. The reality is, we are the slaves and IOC are the masters. Our options are to stay and obey or run away. If we choose to run away, then yes, we will become our own masters, but we will be in a very lonely place.

The probability that you will get equal number of medals for men and women is unlikely unless you get equal number of men and women participating in the sports. When I say equal numbers I don't mean like the ISSF would measure it at the big events I mean at the grass root levels. The reason the men dominate the other sports is that the numbers participating at the grass root levels are greater. The reason Women's air rifle probably comes close is that the participation for women in that sport is higher. The greater the participation levels the chances of getting higher quality shooters is greater. This has been the attraction of the shooting sports is that the women are just as capable of shooting just as good or better then the men.

[jhmartin]

Shock, horror, hold the front page. "Son follows Father's interest in a sport and tries to run a business associated with it".

Apart from through Target Talk I doubt whether many shooters outside of the US have even heard of the Orion system, let alone used it.
As far as the ISSF are concerned it will be the last century's technology.

David (and others),

The Orion system is a great scoring system used in many high schools here in the USA. It is a super scoring system that saves tons of hours at a match, is accurate, and it very useful to a coach in training sessions as well. I have nothing bad to say about it or Eric. The business is run very responsibly and has excellent customer support ... It is unfair to lump the son in with the father based on a blog article ... which is going to obviously favor the son and father in equal admiration. I like Eric and all my dealings with him have been very good ones.

I also like Gary as a person, when he was head of CMP, he was extremely responsive to many procedure issues. I did not always agree with him on rules changes then, and I am in disagreement with him often on the rules changes of the ISSF that flow down to the USAS NGB. While I appreciate the fact that they are (in my opinion) licking the IOC boots to keep the Shooting Sports in the Olympics, I think long term it is a losing battle and by the time the battle is lost they will have (again IMO) screwed up the sport (to an unrecoverable point? ... who knows?).

Can there be International shooting without the Olympics ... another question for another time. (unless some folks want to seriously consider cutting the umbilical ties to IOC ......)

[David Levene]

Shock, horror, hold the front page. "Son follows Father's interest in a sport and tries to run a business associated with it".

Apart from through Target Talk I doubt whether many shooters outside of the US have even heard of the Orion system, let alone used it.
As far as the ISSF are concerned it will be the last century's technology.

David (and others),

The Orion system is a great scoring system used in many high schools here in the USA. It is a super scoring system that saves tons of hours at a match, is accurate, and it very useful to a coach in training sessions as well.

I have no doubt that it is a good system judging by the amount of users in the USA.

My point was that it virtually unheard of outside of the USA and is decades behind the technology expected by the ISSF for their matches. To even suggest that the family connection would influence the ISSF is just plain wrong.

[jhmartin]

To even suggest that the family connection would influence the ISSF is just plain wrong.

Hmmmm .... really? I understand that Eric is one of those that goes and certifies target systems at some ISSF events (may be old info as I don't know his schedule)

=========================================
And BTW (yeah, off topic), the ORION system may be used with (old tech) paper targets, but it is extremely accurate in the Air realm ... I'd match it against any electronic resolution. (especially in a score challenge situation)
Now with smallbore, not as much, as the holes are not as clean

[David Levene]

To even suggest that the family connection would influence the ISSF is just plain wrong.

Hmmmm .... really? I understand that Eric is one of those that goes and certifies target systems at some ISSF events (may be old info as I don't know his schedule)

Do you mean target certification or target testing? As I'm sure you know they are very different things.

I still don't understand how, even if it was target certification, it would have anything to do with the Orion system.

When was the last time you saw an ISSF event using paper targets. I can vaguely remember one about 15 years ago when the Sius hire machines were elsewhere.

Even if there was any influence then it's obviously not very effective. As far as I know, only the Disag target reading machine is ISSF approved.

We are going off topic but it gets my back up when people suggest that just being related to someone gives you influence in an organisation when there is no additional evidence.

[jhmartin]

We are going off topic but it gets my back up when people suggest that just being related to someone gives you influence in an organization when there is no additional evidence.

OK ... I'm sorry - misunderstood ... I totally agree with you there.

[Ricardo]

The point is not to agree with the Georgians, but rather that they responded, rather than just taking what comes. Do we know if USAS is planning to take a position? Or is it up to USAS members to press for it first?

[j-team]

The probability that you will get equal number of medals for men and women is unlikely unless you get equal number of men and women participating in the sports. When I say equal numbers I don't mean like the ISSF would measure it at the big events I mean at the grass root levels. The reason the men dominate the other sports is that the numbers participating at the grass root levels are greater.

You are missing the point, participation and medal distribution are not related. If 50,000 men shoot air pistol they still only hand out 3 medals at the Olympics. If at the same time only 5,000 women shoot air pistol they will also get 3 medals.

The IOC may use the term "participation" but what they really mean is "medal distribution".

[hundert]

The guy from Georgia has got a clue: the ISSF doesn't know how to make Finals interesting. Everything they do in fact only hurts the Finals (and I think I could read it between the lines!). He actually mentions the exact same points I had made in my posts (I believe in this thread), like sending athlete home after the 8th shot. It's so stupid, it's not even enough to face palm yourself, you need to like... jump from a building and die, that's how stupid it is.

After two series of three shots, athletes will shoot series consisting of two shots <-- why so confusing?? Who made it up? In a different time whoever made it up would've been publicly executed or sent to a concentration camp, or a gulag away for 30 years, just enough time to contemplate on how ridiculously confusing and stupid it was to come of with a cr^p like that.

There's absolutely nothing to look at when athletes shoot these two 3 shot series, no tension, zero. Why not make it 8 separate shots, load, shot, load, shot, so at least my attention isn't somewhere else and I know what's going on, like it used to be.

I'm not even gonna make a comment about music, that's not even worth of a gulag. Slow torture to death.

[randy1952]

The guy from Georgia has got a clue: the ISSF doesn't know how to make Finals interesting. Everything they do in fact only hurts the Finals (and I think I could read it between the lines!). He actually mentions the exact same points I had made in my posts (I believe in this thread), like sending athlete home after the 8th shot. It's so stupid, it's not even enough to face palm yourself, you need to like... jump from a building and die, that's how stupid it is.

After two series of three shots, athletes will shoot series consisting of two shots <-- why so confusing?? Who made it up? In a different time whoever made it up would've been publicly executed or sent to a concentration camp, or a gulag away for 30 years, just enough time to contemplate on how ridiculously confusing and stupid it was to come of with a cr^p like that.

There's absolutely nothing to look at when athletes shoot these two 3 shot series, no tension, zero. Why not make it 8 separate shots, load, shot, load, shot, so at least my attention isn't somewhere else and I know what's going on, like it used to be.

I'm not even gonna make a comment about music, that's not even worth of a gulag. Slow torture to death.

I would agree it is bad when the audience doesn't follow what your doing. If you want an audience you have to make it simple to understand. That is marketing 101. The ISSF has much to learn if this is there example of trying to make the finals more interesting to attract more people to watch. They made it to complicated for the a novice to watch let alone an experienced shooter.

[jhmartin]

I would agree it is bad when the audience doesn't follow what your doing. If you want an audience you have to make it simple to understand. That is marketing 101. The ISSF has much to learn if this is there example of trying to make the finals more interesting to attract more people to watch. They made it to complicated for the a novice to watch let alone an experienced shooter.

Are you really going to make a rifle/pistol final super exciting? Only if you divide the watching audience into 8 groups and give the viewers in the winning group say $5000. Then there would be (a bit more) excitement.

Most of the finals are easy to understand ... 2+2 type of math ... not the SP final--- that's a run at the slots with no images. That's a truely screwed up event.

[randy1952]

I would agree it is bad when the audience doesn't follow what your doing. If you want an audience you have to make it simple to understand. That is marketing 101. The ISSF has much to learn if this is there example of trying to make the finals more interesting to attract more people to watch. They made it to complicated for the a novice to watch let alone an experienced shooter.

Are you really going to make a rifle/pistol final super exciting? Only if you divide the watching audience into 8 groups and give the viewers in the winning group say $5000. Then there would be (a bit more) excitement.

Most of the finals are easy to understand ... 2+2 type of math ... not the SP final--- that's a run at the slots with no images. That's a truely screwed up event.

If they can make poker worthwhile to put on tv then they should be able to make shooting just as interesting.

[ruig]

I tried to image what can make the final exciting for the neutral or semi-neutral public... without success.

Who likes long texts:
http://www.totalsportek.com/most-popular-sports/
http://www.la84.org/gender-stereotyping ... ed-sports/
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Olympics ... -in-Europe

• We don't have professional leagues
• We don't have big money in shooting
• We don't have even good prizes (Medal, Diploma, flowers... sometimes 5000 .177 Diabolos..hm)
• We don't have dynamics and real action on the stage
• We usually buy new gear once in ten years (more often we buy used guns I think). Shooting isn't interesting for industry and potential sponsors, where Morini free pistol achieved natural monopoly because of no one wants to risk investing millions in business designing new free pistol and sale only 20-50 pcs per year first 10 years (very optimistic scenario).
• We have enough firearms owners worldwide... how many % are interested in ISSF shooting? Example - our club about 300 members. In ISSF disciplines interested only ~20 (really active ISSF shooters 4 or 5).

It is puzzle for me why darts, archery and biathlon are so popular.

See youtube.
Archery world cup final video Vegas 2015 > 100K views.
Issf WCF air pistol 2015 8000 views