Bee sting tuner

[dontshootcritters]

Hi Guys
I'm looking at getting a tuner/bloop for my rifle and was quite interested in either a Bee Sting or one of Guy Stariks Question please if I may..
I have been told the Bee Sting is awkward to clean owing to the extension at the end of the carbon tube. I'd be very interested to hear opinions on that or any others please.
Thank you in advance

[patriot]

The extension is not a problem at all. But using a metal brush on the carbon fiber is out; making it a little harder to clean. Shotgun mops work pretty well. For me, the quality of the tuner and the great support make up for the added effort.

Mark

[MarkTrew]

I have one of Guy Starik's long And found it works well. I have another ordered for a second rifle

As I think about the tube/tuner, Guy does his by a formula. Others do it by the, well, whatever.

As for cleaning, a nylon shotgun brush from Brownell's does the trick


Mark Trew

[dontshootcritters]

Hi Guys
Thank you for the replies,it's appreciated
Why is tube length so important? I thought the tuner was the important part. Nice to have a carbon tube to reduce weight but the length really only was a factor in getting the foresight out further?
I'd be very interested in replies.
Thanks again in advance

[Martin Catley]

For me it is getting a better focus on the fore sight, I seem to use a slightly less powerful lens in my glasses to get a better sight picture.

The extra movement you can see is a bit scary as well caused by the extra length!!

[patriot]

Yes, the tube is primarily for the extra sight radius. Some theorize the tube allows the bullet to stabilize a little before the wind grabs hold, but others feel the turbulence in the tube starts the bullet off poorly. I doubt anyone really knows.

Mark

[dontshootcritters]

For anything like that to happen the tube would surely need to be massively long compared to what it is!

[Justin Credible]

I have one of Guy Starik's long And found it works well. I have another ordered for a second rifle

As I think about the tube/tuner, Guy does his by a formula. Others do it by the, well, whatever.

As for cleaning, a nylon shotgun brush from Brownell's does the trick


Mark Trew

I think anybody who says they have a formula for such a thing is selling snake oil. I've yet to see any real experiment that shows that anybody understands the WHY of tuners. Even the stuff I've seen on IF they work is empirical and not from an actual good experiment. But I think there are enough awesome shooters out there that say they do work that they are probably right.

Personally, I like a heavy tuner (my main gun has a long Uptta). But I only shoot prone. Others may prefer the light ones. I would think that heavier would tune better as well, but I don't actually know that (I certainly don't understand the why of tuners either).

From what I have seen the Bee Sting is better constructed than the Starik, but don't confuse that as me saying they are bad (but I'll stick with a solid piece of metal). I do have a Bee Sting on my back-up gun and I always used a brass brush wrapped with a patch and never had a problem with it damaging the tube.

Justin Tracy

[patriot]

I don't buy into the calculation either; overly simplified. Hopefully there will be a scientific experiment that demonstrates what if any value a tuner is providing.

Mark

[PRX2500]

Good Evening All

Justin, I take exception to your use of the word "snake oil" . To use that word implies that there is something misleading or fraudulent about the claims of a product or in this case, the method Guy uses to determine the proper length a bloop tube needs to be for any barrel.

My name is Tony Purdy, and about 3 years ago I came up with a simple formula to determine the proper settings for the tuners we use in RimFire Benchrest. It is called the Purdy Prescription or PRX for short. It has been extremely successful. In fact it was used by the current World RF Benchrest Champion. It is used in over 13 different countries by 100's of shooters, and has claimed its share of podium finishes, National Championships, and several perfect scores in competition.

The formula is based on the harmonics developed in a closed end tube. The physics and harmonics can be easily found by googling closed end tube harmonics. I just figured out a way to make it work for tuners and bloop tubes

About 2 years ago Guy and I had the opportunity to talk. He was interested in if my process might work just as well for the position/prone shooters. He gave me some barrel lengths and I in turn have him what I thot would be the optimum length of tube.

He tried it out and found that there was an improvement. He had been planning on developing a carbon fiber tuner/bloop tube and decided to use PRX for his lengths. All you need do now is visit his web site and see the testimonials of the several World Class shooters that are sold on the Starik Carbon Tube.

You need only to look at this recent World Cup match in Bangkok. 6 of the top 12 shooters in the prone event were using the SCT, including a podium finish. There will be several in the 3P comp as well

I have shared my method freely and have never asked for anything in return. The friends I have made thru PRX far out weigh any amount of money I might have made.

If you want to know more, please feel free to ask me anything.

It has been an honor for me to work with Guy, and am immensely please that his creation has been so successful.

Snake Oil, I think not.

Thank You All For Your Time

Tony Purdy
The Purdy Prescription (PRX)
Does your rifle shoot "Purdy Good?"

[patriot]

Tom,
Stories aren't proof, many agreed with the node theory too. Lets say I have two Anschutz 54's with 27 inch (690 mm) barrels and BeeSting tuners, one a 1913 profile and the other an 1813 profile. Does your theory suggest they will both be in tune with the weight in identical positions? It wouldn't matter if one is in a 2213 aluminum stock and the other a wood stock? Receiver bolt tension and glass vs. rubber bedding wouldn't matter? Sling and shoulder pressure would be of no consequence? Air temperature? Ammo velocity? Is there any scientific measurements can you share that support the theory?

Mark

[Justin Credible]

Tom,
Stories aren't proof, many agreed with the node theory too. Lets say I have two Anschutz 54's with 27 inch (690 mm) barrels and BeeSting tuners, one a 1913 profile and the other an 1813 profile. Does your theory suggest they will both be in tune with the weight in identical positions? It wouldn't matter if one is in a 2213 aluminum stock and the other a wood stock? Receiver bolt tension and glass vs. rubber bedding wouldn't matter? Sling and shoulder pressure would be of no consequence? Air temperature? Ammo velocity? Is there any scientific measurements can you share that support the theory?

Mark

You forgot tuner material, clamp force, anything non concentric (e.g. the collar, front sight). Who knows what else. I worked many years as an optical manufacturing engineer and although I am not even close to an expert on vibrations, I'm certainly in no position to argue the physics without reading up on it, I do know from extensive experience that just about anything and everything has an influence. And that if people think something will work they will often get the data to show it does (not intentionally, but people see what they want to see and even their shooting care/precision will often change, subconsciously, if they think something should be better or worse.) The mind is a terrible thing!

Tony,

I didn't mean to imply that you, or anyone else, is intentionally trying to mislead anybody. As far as I can tell those that are using the formula to sell anything truly believe it has its benefits. The product and the seller are two different things. If you or Guy feels that I was saying that there is an intent to mislead others in this regard then I do apologize, as that is not my intent.

Justin Tracy

[gstarik]

Tom,
Tony's theory doesn't suggest that both of your rifles will be in tune with the weight of the tuner in identical positiones.Tube length calculated by prx + tuner setting (which will be different for every rifle) will let you achieve the best results. All the aspects you have mentioned do matter! That's the reason the SCT comes with a tuner, to help control all these aspects. For more information, please visit my website:
starikshooting.com
Justin,
I think there is a good reason why many of the best shooters in the world chose to shoot with the SCT.
I have put a lot of time designing the tube and testing it untill I have decided to produce it. I'm sure it works extremely well.
I will be happy to answer any questiones.
Guy.

[PRX2500]

Good Morning All

I do agree that almost anything imaginable can and will affect the performance of the rifle. That's why we spend so darned much money on this sport. We are searching for ways to make the rifle/ammo/shooter be more consistent shot to shot.

Tuners have been a fact of life for over 20 years in rim fire bench rest shooting. Trying to figure them out as far as their best setting has been a point of contention for just as long. At times you would think tuning involves the use of chicken blood at midnite under a full moon.

I am not a scientist or an engineer, so don't ask me to trot out graphs and long complicated formulas, it just isn't there. My decision to but PRX out in a public format, was based on the results shooters were getting when comparing my tune to their tune. A couple were even dead set to prove me wrong, only to end up with a better tuned rifle.

I draw my conclusions thru observation of the world around me. Orchestral bells are one of my favorite examples. A tube tuned to a middle C will always be a middle C. Hit it harder, hit it softer, hit it with wooden mallet, or a metal hammer, it will always be a middle C. Freezing cold, or desert hot, it will always be a middle C. I you want a different note, your only option is to change its length. The harmonics involved are a bit different in this example, but you get the picture.

Another favorite is the trombone. The notes played are determined almost solely by the length of the tube being changed. Interestingly enough, the instrument is hand held, effectively damping the tubes vibration of the tube itself without affecting the harmonics being developed inside the tube.

I'm sorry if I came on a bit too strong in defense of PRX and Guy's Starik Carbon Tube. In the end, all we have is our integrity, and I felt that was being questioned. I personally can not shoot to save my life. Guess its kind of a karma thing. I do enjoy shooting, tho. My game of choice is ABRA (Auto Bench Rest Association). We use semiauto rifles with most being Ruger 10/22's or their clones. Some of the better ones will scare the living daylites out of the bolt guns.

You are right Justin, in that the mind believes what it wants to believe, and I believe in PRX

Have a great day

Tony

[IRLConor]

I think anybody who says they have a formula for such a thing is selling snake oil. I've yet to see any real experiment that shows that anybody understands the WHY of tuners. Even the stuff I've seen on IF they work is empirical and not from an actual good experiment.

http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/ ... barrel.htm

That's probably the most scientific approach to tuning I've seen described anywhere. There are flaws with it for sure, but it's a hell of a lot better than most of what you'll hear chatting to folks on a range.

Trying to approach shooting from a hard science point of view is very difficult because unless you have a ton of both time and money you will never be able to build a dataset large enough to allow you to properly control for all the variables in play. You even have the fact that psychology plays such a huge part in the sport. If you believe that your rifle is correctly tuned you'll probably perform better just from having confidence in your rifle. Good luck controlling for that in a study on tuners! :)

[Justin Credible]

Tom,
Tony's theory doesn't suggest that both of your rifles will be in tune with the weight of the tuner in identical positiones.Tube length calculated by prx + tuner setting (which will be different for every rifle) will let you achieve the best results. All the aspects you have mentioned do matter! That's the reason the SCT comes with a tuner, to help control all these aspects. For more information, please visit my website:
starikshooting.com
Justin,
I think there is a good reason why many of the best shooters in the world chose to shoot with the SCT.
I have put a lot of time designing the tube and testing it untill I have decided to produce it. I'm sure it works extremely well.
I will be happy to answer any questiones.
Guy.

Guy,

I don't doubt that your tube works very well, certainly many of the people shooting it wouldn't use it if it hurt their scores! My doubt lies strictly with the explanation around it and the criticality of the length. Not the end result of using your tube/tuner. My choice of words earlier was not appropriate and for that I do apologize!

Justin Tracy

[WesternGrizzly]

So to answer the OP:
The beesting has two problems that I have seen with it. Firstly the tube is a pain in the butt to clean. One of my teammates at school had one, and we had a "race" to see how long it took to clean the beesting vs my Upta. His took about 5 times longer than mine. Secondly the screws are not metric, so you need to carry another wrench with you. I am not trying to discredit Tarl's product at all, because it is a very good product.
Starik's tube is also very good. I am not sure I buy into the formula. Smallbore prone has so much voodoo involved already, I try to keep things as simple as possible. As to his product? I think it is very good. The only thing I have ever seen wrong with one of his tubes was a rail fell off of it, but I believe his model has changed.

Do tuners work? I think so. Do I think they're magic? Absolutely not. I think they can make groups a little bit more consistent and maybe a bit more round, but they can also do the exact opposite. And I don't think the tuner is going to make a 624 shooter into a 630 shooter. It MIGHT give a point.
Matt

[Martin H]

I think Matt has touched on one thing, the Beesting is very well made but it is harder to clean due to the lip inside where the internal diameter changes. My Starik tube is a breeze, I use a shotgun mop with some Chux kitchen cleaning cloth on the outside, one push through and it's done. The slippery and smooth finish inside the tube makes it very easy to clean.

The theory behind the Starik bloop tube is that it gives a total tuned length (set for each individual barrel length) which gives some sort of "positive compensation" for different speeds of ammunition. Now the disbelievers out may scoff at the idea of "positive compensation", I did too. But I have fired different batches of the same ammunition that have a difference in velocity of 30fps and they will go through the same hole at 50m. There is no difference in POI that I can see due to the speed difference. I don't have any claims on why or how it works, it just does.
And that's with the tuner set at 0, I have never found any improvement in group size by moving it.

Guy has used Tony's Purdy PRX prescription for his tubes and it seems to be working, there seems to be high proportion of Starik tubes used in this last WC in Thailand. And as another bonus the total weight is the same as my standard Bleiker long bloop tube.

As a disclaimer, I have no financial interest in any of the products mentioned above, I am just a very happy owner of a Starik Carbonfibre tube.
Martin

[gstarik]

Justin,
No worries!
I know Tony's formula(prx) works,because I have tried it on many rifles,and I have seen the improvment,time and time again!
The SCT has 2 more features which makes it work better:
The collar on the muzzle is very short(only 25mm),which makes the chock closer to the muzzle.
Its light,therefor easier to tune for positive compensation(I have learned that spending 3 days with Dr.Jeoffrey Colbe),and easier to shoot standing with.
Matt,
I think that the difference between untuned rifle,to a tuned rifle,is much more than 1 point for 60 shots.
From my experience,it will be more than 3 points...
I don't think that tuning is voodoo. I have learned the subject, and I feel like I know what I'm doing,because I can repeat it,and tune every rifle.
You can't make a bad rifle shoot well,but with a the right tuning,you can make almost every rifle to shoot better!
Guy.

[patriot]

I'm weary of rationalists that pass off thoughts as facts and empiricists that speak of absolutes; but I can't prove either are wrong :-)