ISSF World Cup Prone - Clapping during Final Shots

[rmarsh]

I certainly agree with you Joel, the current rules / environment is the way things are right now. Yep, we train for the noise and the SFZ final. It's the way the game is played, so you have to train for the way it is, not the way you want it to be. I just don't think the noise adds anything to the sport, and is taking a serious sport and making it a circus. As for the SFZ final.... Case in point. In 4 events in the world cup final the person who won the match (sometimes by more than 10 points) came in 7th place in the final. Just don't seem right to watch a person who ties the world record in the match go home with a 7th place finish and the person who squeaked into the final in 8th place (11 points down) go home with the gold. (3X20 yesterday, Munich)

I do think it accomplishes something to "complain / discuss" these types of things on a forum like this. It is a good vehicle to see what others in the sport think. In addition, even if they don't see it firsthand, these type of discussions eventually make it to the decision makers, especially if enough people chime in.

[David Levene]

As for the SFZ final.... Case in point. In 4 events in the world cup final the person who won the match (sometimes by more than 10 points) came in 7th place in the final. Just don't seem right to watch a person who ties the world record in the match go home with a 7th place finish and the person who squeaked into the final in 8th place (11 points down) go home with the gold. (3X20 yesterday, Munich)

The point is that they didn't win the match. "All" that they did was get the highest score in the qualification stage.

The result of the qualification stage has as little relevance to the match result as does the result of an elimination stage. All that it does is decide who should move on to the next stage.

I know that everyone knows this, so why are so many stuck in the pre-2013 match procedure mind set. The old procedures have gone, and I doubt that they will ever return.

My personal view is that, if you're going to have a final then SFZ makes perfect sense.

[rmarsh]

I expect you are right that the SFZ final is here to stay. I would have no objection if it was a full match. For the 100 meter sprint is the final round a 40 meter sprint?? Do they reach out and grab the last place person off the track every few meters? Nope, they run a full 100 meters. Often that person who was a ways back at 50m wins it....

3P finals are pretty good, 3/4 of a full match for women anyway. Prone and air matches with eliminations after 8 shots are as much luck as skill. If they at least made it like 3P and did the eliminations in the last 5 shots it would be much better. Better yet if they just get rid of the eliminations and let everyone shoot the entire final. Wouldn't the occasional come from behind win be just as exciting to spectators as watching athletes have to sit down less than halfway through the final?

[abinok]

Couldnt disagree more. I think it makes it better to watch and also ahows who can cope with pressure better. They should bring it in in golf and then it might not be so damn boring. Oh and the Olympics isnt just about the competitors. The day when they think that nobody wants to watch it at all will be the day it is replaced by another sport

Completely agree.

I think that a certain degree of noise is acceptable. However, I'm a coach -- not a competitor. I train my shooters with distractions. Yes Suhl was noisy ... so I taped the WHOLE final audio ... removed the commands and looped the shooting and noise out to 1 hour. We play that (and others), both air & 22.

The discussion here is interesting, but it is like the discussions about the seat patch and shoe stiffness, and all of the other "new" rules & allowances. Does not mean a darn thing ... these complaints should be directed (if you feel so strongly) at your federation. Same for SFZ finals (Rick knows that I like them ... my shooters like them) the training for finals should be as intense as possible ... a bit off topic there.

As it is, as a coach who's federation pretty much ignores me ... the rules are the rules ... as they are written now and it's MY responsibility to get my shooters ready for the noise and the pressure of an SFZ final ... and be positive about it. No sense giving them a negative attitude going into a final.

Do I think the rules will start changing after Rio ... absolutely! Now what they will change to? .... as the old saying goes, be very careful what you ask for. :)

Now ... my own opinion, I don't mind the clapping ... but the airhorns, vuvuzelas, and stomping on a flexible floor indeed are rude ... even cowbells. But we train with them.

Mr. Martin, have you considered making that looped audio available?

[patriot]

For 96.23 percent of us shooting is a Corinthian sport; we are not in this to make money. We share a common interest. We are of one spirit. We freely share our knowledge, experience, time, and even equipment. When someone has a great day we sincerely congratulate him or her; happy for their success. Are there folks that want to win at any cost, going so far as to cheat? I know of one that traded his honor for two points in a meaningless match. Sad; classless behavior. And now there is a shooting organization that promotes poor sportsmanship for the sake of commercialization? The only match I've walked away from was one where the match director kept getting into loud arguments while we tried to shoot. Life is too short to put up with a circus when I can have just as much pleasure shooting on the farm. The quiet there is incredible.

Mark

[jhmartin]

Mr. Martin, have you considered making that looped audio available?

Here ya go:

http://vc4hss.com/_Noise/NOISE__WAR_10mFINAL_Suhl.mp3

(Warning ... 67Mb ... you should be able to right click the link and save)

[jhmartin]

What will it take to make a change here?
I'm such a cynic that I can only see things like this changing when it begins to cost the venues too much money to continue and they (not the athletes & coaches) push back onto the ISSF.

Think of this of something like it. (it's silly I know)

1) Athletes have to somehow double/triple up the hearing protection to the point it is impossible for them to hear range commands, such that (how do you regulate how much HP you wear in a sport which could damage hearing if you are not protected enough??)
2) ISSF has to come up with a rule that target systems be required to also install lights on the targets like:
---RED Light - Range cold, no touching rifle or pistols'
---RED & AMBER lights --- Prep/ Prep & Sighter Periods
---GREEN light --- RECORD firing
---GREEN & AMBER lights - 30sec left or whatever for different matches

Technically possible? Sure Sius/Megalink/et.al. would LOVE to sell more stuff.
Would the current ranges revolt if they had to spend more money to host a match? Would they be the force that makes ISSF go for quieter matches & especially finals?

Or would ISSF just go with something silly like this, if you think not just look at what they've done to the SP final. :-)

[matchguy]

What will it take to make a change here?
I'm such a cynic that I can only see things like this changing when it begins to cost the venues too much money to continue and they (not the athletes & coaches) push back onto the ISSF.

Here's the ISSF's email. Maybe if they hear enough from people how this noise, clapping makes the sport appear unprofessional, circus atmosphere and deliberate attempt to affect the outcome of the matches, they'll change. They could set a precedence for other sports like Olympic archery, bowling, tennis etc where complete concentration is required to either win or loose the gold but fans screaming & clapping made someone loose.
munich@issf-sports.org

[rmarsh]

What will it take to make a change here?
I'm such a cynic that I can only see things like this changing when it begins to cost the venues too much money to continue and they (not the athletes & coaches) push back onto the ISSF.

Here's the ISSF's email. Maybe if they hear enough from people how this noise, clapping makes the sport appear unprofessional, circus atmosphere and deliberate attempt to affect the outcome of the matches, they'll change. They could set a precedence for other sports like Olympic archery, bowling, tennis etc where complete concentration is required to either win or loose the gold but fans screaming & clapping made someone loose.
munich@issf-sports.org

Great suggestion. I will send an email today.

[FrankD]

Hi friends,

i do agree with all as jet stated arguments against this rhythmic clapping and against this man made noise with instruments and so on.

It is rude behaviour and it is so much disrespectful towards the shooters and i also don't like it as a spectator. For me it's a shame that some of the ISSF representatives encourage this bad behaviour. It makes the last shoots like a lottery and destroys often the earning of the hard work. I can tell you (as a formerly shooter in the German league) you will always hear this kind of noise and you can't really train against this rhythmic clapping. The last shoots in a finale are always the hardest shoots and especially this rhythmic clapping makes it nearly impossible to make a good shoot and it will also often make the shooters look like dilettantes.

There was and is something like the spirit and the soul of this always beloved sport and shooting is much more then only 5 minutes on the TV every four years at the games and on the long run this donating only one goal will not only destroy the spirit and the soul of this sport but will also destroy the hole shooting sport. Shooting is not a circus and it also doesn't work this way for the crowds on the long run.

If you watch the videos from the this year World Cup Finale in Munich you can easily see that this bad behaviour is nearly always started and encouraged from some of the representatives. Look at Mr. Schreiber. No one of the trainers or the involved shooters does it. No one of the shooters is really happy about that but most of them won't say anything against this bad game. They take it but they are not happy about it.

Not only my 2 cents.


Regards

Frank

[David Levene]

There was and is something like the spirit and the soul of this always beloved sport and shooting is much more then only 5 minutes on the TV every four years at the games and on the long run this donating only one goal will not only destroy the spirit and the soul of this sport but will also destroy the hole shooting sport.

IMHO the single most important thing for the future of the shooting sports is to remain in the Olympics.

Without that then, apart from in a small handful of countries, sport shooting will be under extreme pressure and will not survive in a great many.

In commercial terms target shooting is not a particularly profitable industry to be part of. Dramatically trim the customer base and how long will it be before manufacturers decide that it simply isn't worth it.

[jhmartin]

IMHO the single most important thing for the future of the shooting sports is to remain in the Olympics.

David ... I'll be the first to admit that here in the USA our priorities are different than most countries of the world. Here, the Olympic/International style of the shooting sport are so minuscule to all the other styles. The 5 minutes that FrankD mentions may be the time is Europe & Asian areas, but if it's a 20 sec sound bite here it's big news! Although I don't coach them, our "Action Gun" type competitions, Plate, 3-Gun, Trap & Skeet, Challenge are much, much more exciting than International styles.

I don't really think, after watching events here in the USA, watching events on ISSF TV that ANY of the changes to the rules have made the sport more TV friendly. For most of the world this is an UN-PC sport and the broadcasters will always marginalize it. Our Action type events are barely covered here. Hell. even ISSF does not re-/broadcast the entire final ... the most exciting parts ... the changeovers are dumped. Usually the commentary during that period is very interesting to the sport as a whole.

Personally (and maybe this is because I coach), I'd rather see something like a SCATT trace split screened as we are watching a shooters shot ... to me that is what would probably awe me. Where the bullet/pellet hits is unremarkable unless we can analyze why it hit where it did.
Compare the action to car racing ... F1, Indy, NASCAR ... all put cameras in/on the car ... yes added weight & some complexity, but a more friendly/exciting viewer experience.
If all finalists had to mount a (wireless) MX02 type camera to their guns (and practice/quals with weight simulators) you could really have something interesting to broadcast .. shotgun would be pretty cool.

[tenx9]

It seems that the ISSF and the NRA changes rules and formats to whatever whim they desire. It probably because the powers that be don't shoot anymore or ever for that matter, and they're always trying to find that magical idea that will vault them from obscurity to prominence. In an effort to bring our sport mainstream they have this false idea that the next fad will do it. Couldn't be further from the truth. The rapid fire finals is such a joke. Its either hit or miss. Three position finals has turned into a triathlon, where your running to get into the next position. Now, you have to have three of everything or you'll never make it. You break your butt to either win it outright or make it into the top three to medal, but nope, now you have to juggle plates while standing on your head while listening to the roar of the crowd. Fact is, at least in the US, our sport will never be in vogue or popular. Most I bet don't even realize its an Olympic sport. Unless an US athlete is in the final for a gold, his/her TV spot will be shown (if at all) at 3am. Of maybe Bob Costas will mention it during one of his long winded speeches exploiting the talent of the next LoLo Jones. Clapping at the finals??? Why not, might as well throw darts at the competitors while they're shooting. They can take it, they're wearing leather coats afterall.

[Rover]

Perhaps if the athletes did the sportsmanlike thing and turned around to give the crowd a salute in the Italian or Brit or American manner, the TV would be reluctant to show it, thereby thwarting the ISSF handling of things.

[Tim S]

Perhaps if the athletes did the sportsmanlike thing and turned around to give the crowd a salute in the Italian or Brit or American manner, the TV would be reluctant to show it, thereby thwarting the ISSF handling of things.

Would they though? Alexander Schmirl indicated his displeasure to his target monitor in just this way during the 3-P Final at the Granada World Cup two years ago. ISSF TV did not edit it.

[methosb]

I apologize for bringing back this topic but I have been watching the Suhl Junior World Cup rifle finals and the crowds are absolutely awful. I can understand clapping and cheering, and I can even understand having the music in the early establishing shots before the knockouts, but at these finals there is someone with a vavusala tooting and a guy shouting noises in a way to specifically try to startle the shooters into accidentally firing.

I thought that maybe someone would have had a word to them after the first time but they have been doing it at everything every final.

[dc.fireman]

I apologize for bringing back this topic but I have been watching the Suhl Junior World Cup rifle finals and the crowds are absolutely awful. I can understand clapping and cheering, and I can even understand having the music in the early establishing shots before the knockouts, but at these finals there is someone with a vavusala tooting and a guy shouting noises in a way to specifically try to startle the shooters into accidentally firing.

I thought that maybe someone would have had a word to them after the first time but they have been doing it at everything every final.

I watched it today too, and thought the same thing. The announcer even made a point of calling out the hornblower during the introductions...

[rmarsh]

I was there at Suhl a couple of years ago, it was exactly the same as you describe.

It is encouraging to see others begin to point out that the noise in the finals has gotten completely obnoxious. Earlier in this thread I made my comments so I will not repeat them again. As "methosb" pointed out, the noise has gone far beyond applause and cheering for your athletes / country. Now, it is about trying to intentionally distract the athletes. All with the encouragement of the ISSF. I hope others will begin to push back on this as well.

[imac]

I like the new finals, I see somewhere else in here some wrote of the 100M running final. If I may use that myself.
The old 10 shot final was like the fastest qualifier having a head start over 2nd 3rd 4th and so on down the field. Either the final starts from zero or the current qualification round is the final.

As far as the atmosphere well, it's a tricky one. I've play golf at a very high amateur level, none of us would wish someone to click a camera have a phone ring etc etc such is the level of concentration is shooting any different, not at all. Would golfers be able to deal with clapping cameras phones ringing, I guess if they had too they would adapt. I don't mind the clapping talking and music but the cow bells and horns are a joke a BAD JOKE.
Someone else mentioned the fact that it could well be used to basically scare the athlete. I wonder when the top 8 take the line and the last 5 single shots are about to happen, if this situation may arise. After watching a number of finals I could easily figure out within a second of when each athlete was about to fire a shot standing (we train to shoot in a rhythm) so 6 seconds after shooter X puts head on cheek piece I let out a yippy ka a mother ****** and blow a trumpet in an effort to put him off, because I know my shooter Y is going to either shoot before or after this happens. Smells a bit to me, Olympic Medals are worth a lot of money.........

[jhmartin]

Maybe ISSF and IOC figure that making a spectacle of the sport is the only way to get attention.
....
like spoiled 3 year olds.