A few anschutz 1411 questions

[justadude]

While I applaud the effort of getting out and starting the selection process, without trying to be harsh, group testing, off the bench, with iron sights is more for recreation than serious testing. It is amazing because it does not look that hard but shooting a smallbore off the bench with irons and getting solid groups is tough.

Now, you were fretting about mounting a scope. While you have to poke around on the used equipment forums your rifle is old style with old style scope blocks up on the barrel. Any chance you could scare up an equally old style Unertl or Lyman scope that would clamp right onto those blocks? Without so much as a whimper I might add.

Next, along with the discussion about the bedding and bedding screws are they being torqued evenly? While your rifle most likely has the old style slotted head screw type bedding screws most Anschutz 54 actions shoot their best with 5 N-m (45 in-lbs) of torque on the bedding screws. This is another factor to tune for as you really get this rifle dialed in. On that note, especially for the older M54 actions do NOT conduct any testing much beyond 5.5 N-m of torque. Due to the heat treating when the barrels are inserted the threads on the front bedding screw tend to be kind of soft and will pull out if too much torque is applied.

The points that Tim and Cumbrian are making about finding not just the right brand but also lot number are spot on. These rifles are born with attitudes. Give them what they like and they will play well with others all day, don't do that and they will make your life miserable. Every two to three years I call up my supplier and tell him to send me 100 rounds of the lots of Eley Club he has available. Almost invariably, one of these lots will shoot better in my gun than the others. (It also is usually obvious, no calipers or comparitors required). I will then order a case of that lot. The net result is when I am "on" @ 50 yards, the rifle will reliably shoot 50s with 4 and 5 centers more reliably than the shooter behind the rifle is capable of doing. For about 1/3 the price of shooting Tenex.

Don't fret, looking at your groups I don't see any indication that you have a real issue at the moment, mostly a rifle that is just not dialed in.

Cheers,
'Dude

[BigAl]

I would not consider shooting a 97 (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for the three shot hole only having one shot out) on the ISSF target at 50m after only four weeks of shooting prone rifle to be "bad" I'd be very happy shooting regular 97's after shooting for 35 years. If I were batch testing the rifle for ammunition then I would not be using a diopter sight, but a good high magnification telescopic sight. BKL make a very good cantilever scope base that is perfect for the early Anschutz rifles. I use one on my 1964 vintage 1411. Also remember that that rifle is at least 50 years old. They started adding the front dovetails in 1965. It might just be that the couple of batches of ammunition that you have tried are not well matched to that rifle. I have to say that these days I would not spend the difference in price between Eley Match and Tenex, unless I was having the rifle batch tested at the factory. I really do not think that you will find a random batch of Tenex that will significantly outshoot a random batch of Match. Apart from the CCI, and I would never class any CCI as good target grade ammunition, most of those other groups would be scoring you in the high 90's were they properly centered. Assuming that you can keep that level of consistency up when regularly shooting from the shoulder, that is pretty close to the point where having the rifle batch tested would start to be of benefit. Looking at the two cards you shot from the shoulder if the groups had been properly centered then the score would have easily been 98, and you called the two high shots as well, so that should discount those shots from your appraisal of the ammunition.

My advice would be to give the rifle a good clean, and then just shoot it. Judging by the results that you have shown it won't be holding your development as a prone rifle shooter up any time soon.

Alan

[Muffo]

i didnt only shoot the target i posted. i had another 8 boxes. of various other ammo and all of it was about as bad. i will have a look around for a canterleaver mount and put a scope on it. I am very happy with how well im shooting prone in a short time. i only shot the rifle prone before i bought it. considering the groups i shot prone i was pretty shocked when they didnt get any better off the bench.
the action screws could be an issue as i was just doing them up tight. i didnt have a small enough torque wrench so i just bought one. is the 5Nm with lube or dry.

thanks for all the advice, its been very helpful. hopefully by the end of the day i will know more with correct torquung and cleaning. im also going to take out my old brno to test that there wasnt a problem with how i was shooting off the bench

[justadude]

The 5 N-m torque values would be with a light gun oil type lubricant. About the amount you would use to make sure things won't rust.

'Dude

[Muffo]

another day at the range and 35 lots of ammo tested after using the torque wrench


its still what id describe as woefull. i tried some different torque settings and it changed the shape of the group but didnt make the groups any smaller or larger
in comparison i shot a group with my old hunting 22 which has a 6 power fixed paralax scope off a centrefire so it has bad paralax at 50m, it has a heavy trigger and i improvised a rest with some stacked up wood

im wondering if bedding it might help. only issue is i have never used pillars before and never done a stock where the recoil lig is in the stock

[Tim S]

Is it just me, or do most of those groups show vertical stringing. Bedding could cure this if the action isn't seated properly, but it could be caused by ignition. Even though the firing pin was chewing up your snap caps, it might not be striking deep/hard enough. I'd check the headspace first.

[Muffo]

Is it just me, or do most of those groups show vertical stringing. Bedding could cure this if the action isn't seated properly, but it could be caused by ignition. Even though the firing pin was chewing up your snap caps, it might not be striking deep/hard enough. I'd check the headspace first.

yeah it does show vertical stringing. sometimes it forms as a split group. I have organised to get some pillars made over the weekend.
i can bed it easier than get the head space checked because im not aware of any gunsmiths near me so its a fair drive to get it checked

[patriot]

I'm seeing some 10 to 4. Was there a wind that was coming and going? An older Anschutz that I restored for a friend was showing a clear 12 to 6 pattern before I bedded it. Without personally shooting the rifle using a scope and a chronograph it is just guess work. In addition to conditions, ammo, ignition, or bedding; it could be shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, grip pressure, trigger control, sights.....

Mark

[Muffo]

I'm seeing some 10 to 4. Was there a wind that was coming and going? An older Anschutz that I restored for a friend was showing a clear 12 to 6 pattern before I bedded it. Without personally shooting the rifle using a scope and a chronograph it is just guess work. In addition to conditions, ammo, ignition, or bedding; it could be shoulder pressure, cheek pressure, grip pressure, trigger control, sights.....

Mark

there was wind about but not enough to be the whole cause.
It did cross my mind that maybe i had introduced some sort of human error. thats why i got my hunting 22 to confirm that it wasnt my technique.
im confident its not something in my technique unless i am making a mistake with the apature sights. i have shot quiet a bit off a bench as i have done quiet a bit of work acurising rifles for peoole and developing loads ect. I have representend my country in other shooting disciplines as well so im fairly confident its not a technique problem unless its the sights. if it could even match the groups i can shoot with the brno id be happy enough to just shoot it. hopefully next Wednesday i can borrow a scope and mount and il bed the stock after that.
would it show up the problem if i just bolted it into another anschutz stock

il break out my crony next week as well. which might identify if its ignition

[Tim S]

would it show up the problem if i just bolted it into another anschutz stock?

If someone will lend you a stock with good bedding, then it's certainly worth a shot. It won't do any harm.

[beye]

I have owned and shot a number of these older 54 Anschutz and still have one I shoot. My process when I get one is to recrown it, bed (or rebed it), give it a good bore scrubbing, mount a good scope and start shooting some different types of ammo. I would discontinue the bipod if you still using one. I have also shot a fair amount of .22 BR matches and no serious shooter uses a bipod on the bench. .22 rimfire is all about absorbing/dampening vibrations and you will do better off a stack of sandbags if a proper front rest is not available. Get cheek pressure off the stock -- unlike fullbore rifles, you can redirect the recoil on a light recoiling .22 and keeping the same pressure on it every shot is almost impossible. Lightly touch the stock with the cheek for sight alignment if you must, but no more. One thing that will cause a great deal of confusion is shooting consecutive groups of different brands of ammo or those that have different powder/lube. It take awhile to lay a consistent fouling down the barrel so that each bullet thereafter sees the same fouling down the entire length of the barrel. If you change brands, clean the barrel thoroughly, refoul with the new ammo until the size of the group settles down and then shoot several groups for an average. Eley Tenex, Match and the old Team all share the same type powder/lube and no cleaning/fouling needs be done between them. But if you jump from a different type/brand of ammo on each group, the fouling is continually changing and each bullet sees something different down the barrel. Try a softer rest, a good scope and clean between different ammo's and see if it doesn't improve. If the stock/action have always been together, its a good bet there is not too much wrong with the bedding, though proper epoxy bedding will always help consistency. Don't worry about metal pillars if you do bed it; its more important to achieve stress free bedding and be sure to free float the receiver behind the front of the bolt handle. Get rid of the metal recoil plate imbedded in the stock and use the epoxy bedding to form the new one. Also make sure the bolt handle is NOT touching the stock when the bolt is closed. A new firing pin spring wouldn't hurt and doesn't cost much. Don't be afraid to adjust screw torque, particularly downwards. I've seen BR rifles that wouldn't shoot if torqued over 20 in. lbs. If all this fails to improve groups, it's time to get a smith involved to look inside the barrel and at least recrown it. I have shot Master scores in prone with 1400 series rifles that looked pretty terrible inside (pits, throat shadow) after simply bedding and recrowning them and finding compatible ammo. They are usually very good barrels to begin with and it takes a lot to completely ruin their accuracy.

[Bob Smalser]

I just purchased an old 1411 and i have a few questions about it. firstly i noticed when you dry fire it the bolt rotates slightly. should this happen....

Replace the bolt detent and spring. (The arrow-shaped part let into the handle ring). They wear out eventually. Like a freshened crown and bedding, I do this as a matter of routine on high-mileage oldies.

[Muffo]

is there a place on the net you buy them from. google didnt find me anything. or do i just have to find an anschutz dealer and order one

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anschutz-54-Bol ... 3cf5df992c

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Anschutz-54-Bol ... 3aa4aabce4

Remove it by pushing it forward and twisting after dismantling the bolt collar.

[justadude]

Getting back to the vertical dispersion of the groups. A very important thing here is that this is done off the bench, with irons sights by a shooter relatively new to peep sights.

Smallbore rifles are very sensitive to shoulder pressure, cheek pressure and consistent cheek location. If the face moves backward and forwards on the cheekpiece and or if shoulder pressure is not consistent from shot to shot the shot pattern will start to string vertically. Or more correctly, more vertically than horizontally.

Now, getting an optical sight on the rifle will not eliminate the variations caused by variations in shoulder pressure but will reduce some of the dispersion caused by variations in cheek location on the cheekpiece.

Before declaring the rifle in need of a barrel or major surgery it really should be shot with with a scope.

'Dude

[Muffo]

i finally had some luck today. i took to the stock with a chisel and dremel to float the rear of the action. i then torqued the action down and got shooting. this made a huge difference but didnt make the groups any smaller. instead of being strung up and down they were barly bigger than a bullet high but about the width of the 9 ring at 50m.

this seemed to confirm there is a beddung issue. i played around with torque settings which didnt help much.
when i was down to 10 rounds left i did away with the tirque wrench and just did the bolts up finger tight. they dont even register on my torque wrench which only goes down to 10 inch pounds.

i then shot 2 5mm 5 shot groups. its nothing definate yet with only 10 shots fired but its far better than it has done and 5mm is pretty dam good with sk standard if it keeps it up