Tuners

[Abi]

Tuners...I know nothing about them.

I shoot Smallbore 3P and Prone with an Anschutz 1907, I am considering options for a tuner without using a bloop tube. I'm frugal with my pocket change.

Thoughts?

[gwsb]

Abi I am not an expert on tuners but when I put mine on my rifle the group size was reduced by about 25%. It is integrated with a bloop tube though.

I have never played with it since it seemed to work out of the box. Some shooters test different settings and some say the biggest advantage is to be able to find a setting that makes a good lot of ammo great with each lot having a different setting, of course.

Also, if you keep shooting long enough you will find that a bloop tube is a huge advantage as your eyes get older.

[Tim S]

It may be difficult to find a tuner that's not part of a bloop tube and that would work for smallbore. You could fit a Benchrest tuner, as these can be had without a bloop tube, but then you'd have nowhere to put the foresight. There are the old-fashioned bedding tuners, like the Freeland that fitted into the fore-end and tensioned the barrel, but I don't think these are still made.

As for cost, would a tuner+tube be much more expensive than a straight tuner? If you want cheap, just add weight onto the muzzle.

[WesternGrizzly]

Abi,
I use a tuner tube on my rifle, and I can give you a little bit of advice. First off, I use a 2013 (500mm) barrel, and a 12 inch Uptagrafft Tube.
First off: they work. A tuner will change the size of your groups, and if used properly it can make them a bit smaller. But if you have them set incorrectly it can make your groups larger.
Secondly: They are not magic. You will not see groups magically turn into perfectly round, 10mm groups. You might see a little bit less elevation spread and the like. So if you are not shooting at a high level to begin with, you will probably not see any difference.
Thirdly: they change the balance of the rifle, so you will have to adjust your positions to counteract this.
Just a few ideas to play around with.
Matt

[Abi]

Does the tuner have to be placed all the way at the muzzle or is it possible to clamp one to the barrel behind the front sight? I have tried a bloop tube (10inch) but haven't gotten comfortable. And I don't need to wait till I'm old for bad eyesight ;)

I can understand taking lot tested ammo and a tuner to tighten groups further, but what could I hope for using a tuner on untested ammo?

[patriot]

Matt is on the mark.

Anything you hang on the barrel or use to put pressure on the barrel will change the vibrations; sometimes for the good and sometimes not.

How much it helps depends on how well the ammo matches the rifle out of the box. I'd rather find the best ammo I can then tune the rifle than to try to find ammo that the rifle likes. For average target ammo it probably helps 1/4 inch at 100; your results may vary.

Mark

[justadude]

About 20 years back there were a few tuners out there that clamped onto the barrel behind the front sight. My guess is that as bloop tubes have become very popular it is just easier to add the tuner out in front, along with the tube.

Properly used a tuner will improve the performance of just about any ammo. Now, it will not turn a crappy lot into one capable of winning in the world cup or olympics but the gains can be substantial.

A few things to consider here: You can improve but you cannot fix crap with a tuner. To get the benefit you need to start with a good barrel ammo combination. A tuner cannot fix a bad barrel.

While patriot takes the approach of tuning the barrel/rifle to a known good lot of target ammo I am more old school. I have an older McMillan barrel that I know is quite good and know its characteristics in the stock. I will test a few lots of ammo, select the best then put the tuner on the rifle and see what I can do about setting the tuner to get the very best out of the ammo/barrel combination.

Are tuners for everyone? No, if you don't understand them or you don't want to put the time into adjusting them, a tuner is not for you.

Also, as mentioned, they do change the balance of the rifle, making it heavier toward the front. For my old eyes, I shoot an 8" Uptatuner and that extra distance makes focusing on the front sight WAY easier.

'Dude

[Tim S]

Does the tuner have to be placed all the way at the muzzle or is it possible to clamp one to the barrel behind the front sight?

You can buy weights that clamp midway along the barrel. As described above, these will have an effect on the barrel harmonics, but aren't tuneable in the same way as a conventional tuner. Tuners are basically a weight on a fine screw thread; the thread allows you alter position the weight in relation to the muzzle very precisely. Get the weight in the right place and you change the barrel harmonics in your favour, but finding that sweet spot takes some trial and error. It would seem very difficult to move a clamp-on weight with the same precision, making it more hit or miss.

It may be possible to make one, but I don't know if anyone does. The leverage the weight applies would be different I think.

[rmarsh]

Abi,
I use a tuner tube on my rifle, and I can give you a little bit of advice. First off, I use a 2013 (500mm) barrel, and a 12 inch Uptagrafft Tube.
First off: they work. A tuner will change the size of your groups, and if used properly it can make them a bit smaller. But if you have them set incorrectly it can make your groups larger.
Secondly: They are not magic. You will not see groups magically turn into perfectly round, 10mm groups. You might see a little bit less elevation spread and the like. So if you are not shooting at a high level to begin with, you will probably not see any difference.
Thirdly: they change the balance of the rifle, so you will have to adjust your positions to counteract this.
Just a few ideas to play around with.
Matt

Hi Abi,
Great advice from Matt. As he said, tuners do work. However.... there is much to consider before adding one to your rifle.

I have tested well over a dozen barrels / rifles at the Eley test range, some with tuners some without. I have also used the Eley test range to set up 5 tuners on different barrels. None of this makes me an expert and I certainly don't claim to be one on the subject of tuners, but I do have a few observations from what I saw doing the tests and tuner set ups.

Keep in mind as Matt said, a tuner can just as easily make your barrel shoot worse as better. Actually unless it is set up properly, it will likely make it shoot worse. Just putting a tuner on and shooting a few shots while turning the thing back and forth will almost certainly not result in a properly tuned barrel.

At Eley; the gun is placed in a vice and shot through the 50m tube just as normal ammo test. Dan selects 5 different lots of ammo that range from slow to fast. The tuner is set to the minimum setting (all the way in). 5 shots, then adjust the tuner about 1/8 of a turn, 5 more shots.... repeat until the tuner is all the way out. As you can guess this takes a few hundred rounds and several hours. When the groups are compared, there will be from one to three "nodes" where the group is the smallest and most round. Then, repeat those settings and make even smaller adjustments in each direction to find the exact setting. Move the tuner and then turn it back to the setting again (a few times) to make sure it repeats.

A very important observation: The exact setting is just that "exact". Turning the tuner just a 1/4 or 1/8 turn, maybe less, maybe much less, can take the barrel from shooting great to terrible.

Adding any weight to the end of the barrel can "tune" or "de-tune" a barrel. That includes a bloop tube. A tube after all is a weight. Sometimes they can help, sometimes not. My daughter's current rifle tested great at Eley with the factory bloop tube. Remove the tube and it does not shoot nearly as well. For that barrel, the weight of the bloop tube is functioning to tune the barrel. Weight anywhere along the length of the barrel will have an effect on the "tune". However, weight that extends in front of the barrel is the most effective and will provide the most effect for the least amount of weight. The shorter and fatter the barrel, the more weight it will take to create an effect.

I'm sure a tuner can be set-up by shooting the rifle out of the shoulder in prone. The skill of the shooter, and conditions will obviously be a factor and may require more repetitions to make sure the right setting is found. Either way, test range or shoulder, it is a painstaking process to make sure you get it right. Otherwise you may be doing more harm than good.

In my opinion... and it is just that, my opinion; If one does not set up a tuner properly, they are much more likely to decrease their rifles accuracy than help it.

[patriot]

Great post - thanks for sharing. I test out of prone with a support under my sling wrist. It felt as though the tune off the bench was slightly different than in position. Are you finding the tune in the stock and in the vice agree? Doesn't the vice change the vibrations? The multiple node comment agrees with what I've found. But one spot in particular seemed more forgiving; kind of like the ladder test. But that is just my experience; don't have enough data to make any firm claims.

Mark

[rmarsh]

Hey Mark, I don't think it will change the tuner setting, shot from the shoulder or vise. I have not tested that, so can't say for sure

Usually at Eley, one of the nodes would be a gradual buildup to the best setting, then gradually get worse. That was the one Dan was looking for. The other nodes were usually very abrupt. We avoided those as just a tiny change would go from great to terrible.

[patriot]

Could be. The node I found off the bench was narrow, closer in, unlike where I finally settled. After that I did all my testing in position.

Mark

[Abi]

Thank you everyone for the great information, and keep it coming. I want to know as much as I can before diving in (or not).

I did find one tuner option that has very little tube length, G&E has a new one. Although, I'm sure the setup is not cheap.

[TZaun]

rmarsh, after all your testing with and without tuners, do you feel that with enough testing that going with a tuner is still better than without?

[rmarsh]

rmarsh, after all your testing with and without tuners, do you feel that with enough testing that going with a tuner is still better than without?

The physics say yes. Reality says, not necessarily.

All barrels behave in the same way. There will always be a node of minimum vibration near the end of the barrel. The purpose of the tuner is to move this node to the exact end. So, yes every barrel can be tuned and should shoot better.

From a practical matter... The difference may or may not be enough to matter. The weight of the tuner may negatively impact the shooters ability to hold the rifle.

In the rimfire benchrest community it is considered unlikely if not impossible to win consistently with one. In Olympic prone some top level shooters use them. Other top level shooters do not (Matt Emmons for example) and still win.

In my opinion.... A tuner will help if you are willing to take the time and effort to set it up right. However!! With a good barrel that is matched to a lot of ammo it really likes the difference may be so minimal to be of no advantage. It still all comes down to a good barrel matched to the right lot of ammo. A tuner will not fix a bad barrel, or poorly matched ammo. IMHO!

[rmarsh]

rmarsh, after all your testing with and without tuners, do you feel that with enough testing that going with a tuner is still better than without?

Oops, should have proofread better!

In the rimfire benchrest community it is considered unlikely if not impossible to win consistently WITHOUT one. In Olympic prone some top level shooters use them. Other top level shooters do not (Matt Emmons for example) and still win.

[patriot]

The Calfee node theory didn't hold up.

1) If one calculates the extra time between a slow and fast round traveling to 100 yards, measured through an accurate chronograph, then applies the force of gravity for that time delta, it produces a minimum vertical group size; assuming the bullet exits on a node as Bill suggested. Since we produce groups smaller than that theoretical minimum, there has to be compensation taking place. That is to say, the slower round is being launched at a higher angle than the fast round, offsetting some of the gravity pull due to the extra travel time. I've used a pair of chronographs, one near the muzzle and the other at 100 yards to validate the flight times. I've also tested the precision of the two chronographs by inverting one inside the other. This is much easier to measure at 100 yards than 50.

2) Geoff, a rather clever fellow, created an experiment that actually measured the barrel motion. http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/ ... barrel.htm

Also, the theory of indexing the barrel is to minimize the horizontal vibrations. The curvature of the barrel, natural bend and that due to gravity, will then vibrate in the vertical plane due to the bullet mass and recoil. Those vertical vibrations can be put to use as compensation. Some still debate the value of this, but it can't hurt and it probably helps.

Mark

[rmarsh]

Good info Mark on the Kolbe paper. I've read his stuff before as well as Calfee. In BR circles the exact cause and effect of how / why a tuner works is widely debated. The one thing eveyone seems to agee on, is they do work. At least to some degree in (almost) every case. I'm certainly not sure about any of it. I've read about everything I can find on the subjuct. While I've tested more barrels and done more tuner setups than many, my sample size is still quite small.

Great discussion, I hope we are helping Abi and not just confusing her more!

[patriot]

The effects are small and difficult to measure; difficult to issolate one from another. Bill's six o'clock firing pin is an example. His theory appears to be correct, just barely measurable, but the improvement isn't going to fix me getting on the trigger early. I've spent the last 18 months experimenting with Neural Networks. These programs train themselves to find patterns or to identify which variables matter and which are noise. Perhaps down the road with some clean data, such as Landy may be generating in his tunnel, the technology will separate the wheat from the chaff.

Mark

[Abi]

Not confused at all, just listening :)