Target center shot count?

[ToddMay]

So in 50 meter smallbore it takes a 10.3 to score as an X ( Center Shot ) on an electronic target. But not all 10.3 shots are treated the same. Some show up as X's and others do not. Why is that? If there is a alllowable range for it to be called a center X shot I have not seen that written, but admit i have not looked hard for it.
Just today I saw a lot of 10.3 shots that were not considered X's.
Thank you
Todd

[David Levene]

The inner 10 on the 50m rifle target is 5mm in diameter 2.5mm radius.

To score that inner 10 the centre of the 5.6mm diameter shot hole must be no more than 2.5 = 2.8 = 5.3mm from the centre of the target.

To score a 10.4 the centre of the shot hole must be no more than 4.8mm from the centre of the target.
To score a 10.3 the centre of the shot hole must be no more than 5.6mm from the centre of the target.

Some 10.3s will therefore be inner 10s, some won't.

There is the same problem on Air Pistol where some 10.4s are inner 10s, others aren't.

Hope this helps.

[ToddMay]

Thank you David. It just seems funny especially from an audience point of view that a 10.3 is not an inner 10 SOMETIMES. Explain that one.
Since we have gone through the trouble of making things so much more audience and TV friendly. It should be either an inner 10 or not an inner 10. Can't have it both ways. Just my opinion.

[jhmartin]

Can't have it both ways. Just my opinion.

Todd ... ISSF certainly can (and frequently does) indeed have it both ways <grin>

BTW ... Tell your daughter good shooting today!

[ToddMay]

Well I found out that an inner 10 as a 10.3 and a 10.3not scored as an inner 10 are not the same. A 0.01mm makes the difference.

[Marc Orvin]

The reason for this madness is that the original printed target x ring was established before decimal scoring. Consequently, when they divided up the rings into tenths, the x ring was half way between the low end of 10.3 and the high end of 10.3.

[Tim S]

The reason for this madness is that the original printed target x ring was established before decimal scoring. Consequently, when they divided up the rings into tenths, the x ring was half way between the low end of 10.3 and the high end of 10.3.

No, decimal scoring predates the current 50m targets. The current target series were introduced in 1989, but decimal scoring appeared a few years earlier in '86 or so. I suspect the discrepancy lies with the calculation of the size of the x-ring, vs the decimal rings. Although it may not have been though important as until recently decimal scoring was only used for finals. Were electronic targets in use when the '89 tragets were being designed? If not the target designers may not have considered it a problem.

[David Levene]

Were electronic targets in use when the '89 tragets were being designed? If not the target designers may not have considered it a problem.

The first 50m ESTs to be used in an ISSF competition were in the 1989 World Cup Finals in Munich.

They were then used in the 1990 World Championships in Moscow before starting to appear in (4) World Cups in 1991.

[Johan_85]

What exactly is the problem? The electronic scoring device tell you if it's a inner ten or not.

[ToddMay]

The problem is audience perception. How do you explain to a viewing audience that a 10.3 is sometimes an inner ten and can be used to break a tie and sometimes it is not an inner 10. The sport is trying to be more audience friendly, it should fix this small discrepancy on targets.

[BigAl]

I seem to recall that with the introduction of decimal scoring you would not have normally been using both decimals and inner tens at the same time. My understanding of the rules then was that inner tens could be used to break ties in matches scored with integer value targets, where matches did not have a final. In matches with Olympic finals, the top eight shooters, and equal scores, would go through to the final, which would then be scored with decimals. I don't think anyone thought it was particularly likely that there would be ties on a seventy shot match with the last ten shots scored decimally. Mind you the pre 89 series targets were not really designed with the use of decimals in mind either, the 10 ring was relatively too large and the highest possible score was 11 not 10.9.

Actually I thought that was still the case, that matches either used decimals OR inner tens, but not both at the same time. It does seem though that most EST's will simultaneously show both though during the match. I do not have my download copy of the ISSF rules to hand to check though.

Alan

[Marc Orvin]

In air rifle, the whole match is shot in decimal. Same with prone smallbore. Folks do occasionally tie at these games, and the inner tens are used to break the ties so you can tell who goes to the final.

ISSF Rule 6.15.1 and 6;15.2

[Marc Orvin]

No, decimal scoring predates the current 50m targets. The current target series were introduced in 1989, but decimal scoring appeared a few years earlier in '86 or so. I suspect the discrepancy lies with the calculation of the size of the x-ring, vs the decimal rings. Although it may not have been though important as until recently decimal scoring was only used for finals. Were electronic targets in use when the '89 tragets were being designed? If not the target designers may not have considered it a problem.

Yes, you are right. Back in the day, decimal scoring was used with Nonius gauges. Not with electronic scoring systems.

Decimal was only used in finals, so the x ring was not relevant in the final. It was relevant in the qualification match to break ties. Now the X ring is still relevant in quals, but the whole qualification match for prone or air rifle is in decimal which leads to the spectators seeing some 10.3's as x and others not. And even if the match is not adding the decimal score ( as in 3x40 or 3x20) the EST shows the decimal score for the shot on the shooter's monitor and in some cases on the spectator monitor, even though only the integer is used to add up the score.

So, as has already been stated, the 1986 x ring was not produced to come out to exactly 10.3 or any other decimal number, it was just a ring on the target that was smaller than the ten ring by some magic formula. When EST came along, dividing the ring up evenly in decimals didn't exactly match the location of the x ring, so now you have some 10.3's that are x's and some that are not.

[David Levene]

In air rifle, the whole match is shot in decimal. Same with prone smallbore. Folks do occasionally tie at these games, and the inner tens are used to break the ties so you can tell who goes to the final.

When matches are shot using decimal scoring then inner tens are NOT used to break ties.

ISSF Rule 6.15.1.f
WHEN DECIMAL SCORING IS USED for 10m Air Rifle or 50m Rifle Prone Elimination or Qualification events, ties will be broken by the highest score of the last ten shot series, etc. (decimal scores) and then by comparing decimal scores on a shot-by-shot basis beginning with the last shot, then the next to the last shot, etc.

[Johan_85]

I've never heard of any spectator that have questioned inner ten or not but more often how the decimal scoring works. I think that the problem is blown up in proportion and that energy is better spent on the range shooting or better yet at home dry firing.

[Marc Orvin]

In air rifle, the whole match is shot in decimal. Same with prone smallbore. Folks do occasionally tie at these games, and the inner tens are used to break the ties so you can tell who goes to the final.

When matches are shot using decimal scoring then inner tens are NOT used to break ties.

ISSF Rule 6.15.1.f
WHEN DECIMAL SCORING IS USED for 10m Air Rifle or 50m Rifle Prone Elimination or Qualification events, ties will be broken by the highest score of the last ten shot series, etc. (decimal scores) and then by comparing decimal scores on a shot-by-shot basis beginning with the last shot, then the next to the last shot, etc.

David, I stand corrected.

[rmca]

ISSF Rule 6.15.1.f
WHEN DECIMAL SCORING IS USED for 10m Air Rifle or 50m Rifle Prone Elimination or Qualification events, ties will be broken by the highest score of the last ten shot series, etc. (decimal scores) and then by comparing decimal scores on a shot-by-shot basis beginning with the last shot, then the next to the "last shot", etc.

Just to nitpick... shouldn't it read to the "first shot"?

[jhmartin]

Just to nitpick... shouldn't it read to the "first shot"?

Nope ... beginning with the last shot (i.e. the most recent) and then backwards from there if necessary.

[rmca]

Just to nitpick... shouldn't it read to the "first shot"?

Nope ... beginning with the last shot (i.e. the most recent) and then backwards from there if necessary.

Exactly... backwards to the first match shot.

[David Levene]

Just to nitpick... shouldn't it read to the "first shot"?

Nope ... beginning with the last shot (i.e. the most recent) and then backwards from there if necessary.

Exactly... backwards to the first match shot.

No, it's the one "next to the last shot", and then the one next to that, etc