After 2 years of horrible kneeling off a roll, I changed to sitting on the side of my foot for kneeling. Small roll, large roll, just nothing would work. So I shot a low kneeling on the side of my foot for awhile with much more success. Last week while shooting air I tried a high kneeling while on the side of my foot, and it really shaped up. Yesterday I shot a 198 kneeling on paper, my highest ever. I know my position is fairly unconventional, and I thought I'd ask around and see of anybody has anything position wise that might help.
Thanks!
http://i.imgur.com/as2wJXx.jpg
How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
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Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
If it works for you, keep it up. BUT, be aware that one good target does not mean the change is positive. Often you get higher scores after a change just because it is different and you are paying more attention to what you are doing.
Try it for several weeks, and compare the scores to those from your old position (both for average and extremes). Also, practice more than just twenty shots in the position, so you know it will not break down in longer matches.
Try it for several weeks, and compare the scores to those from your old position (both for average and extremes). Also, practice more than just twenty shots in the position, so you know it will not break down in longer matches.
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Hi
Just my thoughts on the position.
To me it looks terrible. Looks like your body is leaning back and you will be tensing lots of muscles to stay in that position and stop yourself falling/leaning back. (Maybe the camera angle is making it look worse than it is).
Also your front leg being so far from vertical is not the most stable position either.
I am also worried what damage you will do to your right foot/ankle over time sitting on it like that.
At the end of the day Kneeling is not a comfortable position, you should see me trying to walk after 20 or 30 shots when my foot feels like it no long belongs to me haha.
I would be interested to see photos of you in a conventional position maybe some of the guys on here can suggest some changes to make you more comfortable.
Few tips for making you more comfortable in a conventional position are. Make sure your foot to leg angle is 90degs. Have you kneeling roll filled so you don't have too much pressure on your toes. Buy some compression socks these improve blood flow. Finally buy a MEC kneeling roll they are brilliant.
In the post above Pat has given you one of the best bits of advice you will ever get in shooting. Which is to wait for several weeks before deciding if a change has made a difference. It's fairly normal to make a change and to initially shoot really well. It takes weeks to really find out how the change has effected your shooting. Make sure you keep track of your scores and group sizes over several weeks so you can really analyse if the changes have helped or not. Also make sure you have notes on the changes made so you can easily revert back if required.
Just my thoughts on the position.
To me it looks terrible. Looks like your body is leaning back and you will be tensing lots of muscles to stay in that position and stop yourself falling/leaning back. (Maybe the camera angle is making it look worse than it is).
Also your front leg being so far from vertical is not the most stable position either.
I am also worried what damage you will do to your right foot/ankle over time sitting on it like that.
At the end of the day Kneeling is not a comfortable position, you should see me trying to walk after 20 or 30 shots when my foot feels like it no long belongs to me haha.
I would be interested to see photos of you in a conventional position maybe some of the guys on here can suggest some changes to make you more comfortable.
Few tips for making you more comfortable in a conventional position are. Make sure your foot to leg angle is 90degs. Have you kneeling roll filled so you don't have too much pressure on your toes. Buy some compression socks these improve blood flow. Finally buy a MEC kneeling roll they are brilliant.
In the post above Pat has given you one of the best bits of advice you will ever get in shooting. Which is to wait for several weeks before deciding if a change has made a difference. It's fairly normal to make a change and to initially shoot really well. It takes weeks to really find out how the change has effected your shooting. Make sure you keep track of your scores and group sizes over several weeks so you can really analyse if the changes have helped or not. Also make sure you have notes on the changes made so you can easily revert back if required.
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Hi Andre,
not really sure, but it seems to me you are not using real shooting boots. But for good kneeling they are really important. You need a shoe with a strong flat and in the front not to much rounded sole. Second you need a kneeling roll with the right diameter so that your weight is spread nearly equal over your shoe, your roll and you knee. Beware, most rolls on the market are to big. There are more tricks to make the sitting more comfortable and also stable. Loosing the shoelace more or less can also make a big difference. You have to experiment here but i am sure on the long run you will get an better position sitting the 'nomal' way on your feet, also some shooters had some success doing it the unusual way.
If you are mostly on your own way learning kneeling shooting, a good book like "Ways of the Rifle" may show you a better starting point.
Regards
Frank
not really sure, but it seems to me you are not using real shooting boots. But for good kneeling they are really important. You need a shoe with a strong flat and in the front not to much rounded sole. Second you need a kneeling roll with the right diameter so that your weight is spread nearly equal over your shoe, your roll and you knee. Beware, most rolls on the market are to big. There are more tricks to make the sitting more comfortable and also stable. Loosing the shoelace more or less can also make a big difference. You have to experiment here but i am sure on the long run you will get an better position sitting the 'nomal' way on your feet, also some shooters had some success doing it the unusual way.
If you are mostly on your own way learning kneeling shooting, a good book like "Ways of the Rifle" may show you a better starting point.
Regards
Frank
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Not even getting to the part where to put it politely, it does not look good, from what you describe, it is not even legal.
USAS Rule 7.6.1.1(i),(j)
i)If the kneeling roll is placed under the right foot or ankle, the foot must not be turned at an angle of more than 45 degrees;
j) If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be placed at any angle. This may include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the surface of the firing point;
So, either you can sit on the side of your foot. (Nobody does this anymore) or you can use a kneeling roll but you cannot do both.
Regardless of how poorly a position performs or how uncomfortable it might be, to start it must be legal within the rules of competition.
If I was going to start you over, get up on the kneeling roll with your foot at a legal angle. Most better shooters have the heel pretty much at the base of the spine and the toes turned a little bit outward, not inward as is natural.
Next, get the elbow up over the top of the knee so flat on the back of the elbow rests on the flat of the top of the knee. You want the left foreleg just about straight up and down, often with the left foot pulled back just past vertical. You can adjust the amount of filler in your roll to help you build a solid foundation. But be careful as many new shooters get their rolls overstuffed.
Next, cradle the rifle as though you are shooting it but don't attach the sling. Assuming the butt plate is about neutral or below neutral this will give you an idea of about where the handstop should be set. (Yours would seem to be too far forward at the moment) Finally bring the sling into the mix so it supports the rifle.
Good Luck
'Dude
USAS Rule 7.6.1.1(i),(j)
i)If the kneeling roll is placed under the right foot or ankle, the foot must not be turned at an angle of more than 45 degrees;
j) If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be placed at any angle. This may include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the surface of the firing point;
So, either you can sit on the side of your foot. (Nobody does this anymore) or you can use a kneeling roll but you cannot do both.
Regardless of how poorly a position performs or how uncomfortable it might be, to start it must be legal within the rules of competition.
If I was going to start you over, get up on the kneeling roll with your foot at a legal angle. Most better shooters have the heel pretty much at the base of the spine and the toes turned a little bit outward, not inward as is natural.
Next, get the elbow up over the top of the knee so flat on the back of the elbow rests on the flat of the top of the knee. You want the left foreleg just about straight up and down, often with the left foot pulled back just past vertical. You can adjust the amount of filler in your roll to help you build a solid foundation. But be careful as many new shooters get their rolls overstuffed.
Next, cradle the rifle as though you are shooting it but don't attach the sling. Assuming the butt plate is about neutral or below neutral this will give you an idea of about where the handstop should be set. (Yours would seem to be too far forward at the moment) Finally bring the sling into the mix so it supports the rifle.
Good Luck
'Dude
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Pat McCoy wrote:If it works for you, keep it up. BUT, be aware that one good target does not mean the change is positive. Often you get higher scores after a change just because it is different and you are paying more attention to what you are doing.
Try it for several weeks, and compare the scores to those from your old position (both for average and extremes). Also, practice more than just twenty shots in the position, so you know it will not break down in longer matches.
Thank you very much for the reply. I have shot this position smallbore in practice, scores per target stayed consistent throughout the entire practice (50 shots that time), so in believe it is a stable position. Much more consistent than it used to be.
Last edited by Andre on Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Thank you very much for the info, after 50 shots kneeling I can walk around with no pain and my foot is not asleep, not even my front foot aches. Not sure why, but I'm thankful for it that's for sure.FrankD wrote:Hi Andre,
not really sure, but it seems to me you are not using real shooting boots. But for good kneeling they are really important. You need a shoe with a strong flat and in the front not to much rounded sole. Second you need a kneeling roll with the right diameter so that your weight is spread nearly equal over your shoe, your roll and you knee. Beware, most rolls on the market are to big. There are more tricks to make the sitting more comfortable and also stable. Loosing the shoelace more or less can also make a big difference. You have to experiment here but i am sure on the long run you will get an better position sitting the 'nomal' way on your feet, also some shooters had some success doing it the unusual way.
If you are mostly on your own way learning kneeling shooting, a good book like "Ways of the Rifle" may show you a better starting point.
Regards
Frank
I do have the MEC book, and will read the kneeling section. I am just using leather work boots for shooing, might as well be standing on roller skates. Champions choice boots will be in soon, already ordered. I'm sure they will make a difference.
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
Many thanks for the info, if you have a closer look at the picture you can see I'm not sitting on a roll, just the side of my foot so it is in fact legal. Ill try out what you suggested, and if it works out ill let you know.justadude wrote:Not even getting to the part where to put it politely, it does not look good, from what you describe, it is not even legal.
USAS Rule 7.6.1.1(i),(j)
i)If the kneeling roll is placed under the right foot or ankle, the foot must not be turned at an angle of more than 45 degrees;
j) If the kneeling roll is not used, the foot may be placed at any angle. This may include placing the side of the foot and the lower leg in contact with the surface of the firing point;
So, either you can sit on the side of your foot. (Nobody does this anymore) or you can use a kneeling roll but you cannot do both.
Regardless of how poorly a position performs or how uncomfortable it might be, to start it must be legal within the rules of competition.
If I was going to start you over, get up on the kneeling roll with your foot at a legal angle. Most better shooters have the heel pretty much at the base of the spine and the toes turned a little bit outward, not inward as is natural.
Next, get the elbow up over the top of the knee so flat on the back of the elbow rests on the flat of the top of the knee. You want the left foreleg just about straight up and down, often with the left foot pulled back just past vertical. You can adjust the amount of filler in your roll to help you build a solid foundation. But be careful as many new shooters get their rolls overstuffed.
Next, cradle the rifle as though you are shooting it but don't attach the sling. Assuming the butt plate is about neutral or below neutral this will give you an idea of about where the handstop should be set. (Yours would seem to be too far forward at the moment) Finally bring the sling into the mix so it supports the rifle.
Good Luck
'Dude
Re: How Does my Kneeling Position Look?
From the picture (seems there is only one) you cannot see the right foot. When you said a "high kneeling" sitting on the side of my foot the only thing I could surmise was that you were sitting on the side of your foot on a roll.
In general, foot sitting was considered a "low" kneeling position while using a roll was a "high" position.
I shot a low foot sitting position through the 1970s, gave it up and transitioned to using a roll about 1982.
Anymore I am not sure I could even get into a kneeling position for very long. : (
Dude
In general, foot sitting was considered a "low" kneeling position while using a roll was a "high" position.
I shot a low foot sitting position through the 1970s, gave it up and transitioned to using a roll about 1982.
Anymore I am not sure I could even get into a kneeling position for very long. : (
Dude