Hi,
I'm new to the forum and to smallbore target shooting, although have shot air rifle for many years, so forgive any obvious questions and feel free to direct me to any threads that have covered them in the past.
I am a member of a rifle & pistol Club in England and have very recently taken up the taget shooting, and at the moment am only doing the prone discipline. I am using a club gun - an Anshutz Match 54 - I have my own glove and jacket - Anshutz Match 164, but use a club sling.
My scores are fairly consistent and think I have the basic principles ok... but I had a difficult shoot today and wanted to ask a question about sight picture.
I haven't shot outdoors much as yet and today I did, it was bright with the sun in front and to the left - this is a club gun remember so others use it and adjust it, what threw me off was that the sight picture was different. Specifically the amount of "space" around the foresight ring was smaller as if the rear sight was further away... I worked with it and shot just under my average so no biggie. But then I went to the indoor range and the reverse was true about the sight picture, ie: the space around the foresight ring was much bigger than I remember and this produced a much below par score...
What is going on here, and what is the ideal proportion of "space" around the foresight?
Thanks in advance.
Newbie
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Re: Newbie
There are a variety of factors that affect the appearance of your sight picture. One is, as you mentioned, the position of the rear sight on the receiver. An excellent habit to get into how is to record all your rifle's settings: sight position, buttplate settings, cheekpiece settings, handstop location, etc. You should also record what holes your sling buckle is through, and where your jacket's sling keeper is fastened. This is a habit that will serve you well as you advance in your rifle shooting career, and is especially important while using equipment other people can muck with between training sessions. The more adjustments you have, the more important it is to write it all down.
Another factor in sight picture is lighting conditions and the general background colors/shades around your target. USA Shooting has several articles on the physics and physiology of sighting that are linked below.
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... c_2010.pdf
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... b_2011.pdf
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... b_2011.pdf
The third thing that leaps to mind is head position. Putting your head in the same place on the cheekpiece is critical for success with irons, and can dramatically affect your sight picture as you move your head fore/aft, and would explain why you had such a dramatic difference in sight picture and performance between indoor and outdoor. I was able to set up my rifle's cheekpiece so I can use the corner of my cheekpiece on my cheek to feel for a consistent position. Other shooters stick a bead or other tactile indicator on their cheekpiece to ensure consistent head placement. I also use my overall sight picture, and how much of my sight picture is occupied by my front sight, as a backup to how my cheekweld feels. When I check my NPA I check my head position as part of it, and if something isn't right I reset it so it is.
Hope this helps! Welcome to the world of smallbore, and best of luck to you!
Another factor in sight picture is lighting conditions and the general background colors/shades around your target. USA Shooting has several articles on the physics and physiology of sighting that are linked below.
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... c_2010.pdf
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... b_2011.pdf
http://www.usashooting.org/library/Inst ... b_2011.pdf
The third thing that leaps to mind is head position. Putting your head in the same place on the cheekpiece is critical for success with irons, and can dramatically affect your sight picture as you move your head fore/aft, and would explain why you had such a dramatic difference in sight picture and performance between indoor and outdoor. I was able to set up my rifle's cheekpiece so I can use the corner of my cheekpiece on my cheek to feel for a consistent position. Other shooters stick a bead or other tactile indicator on their cheekpiece to ensure consistent head placement. I also use my overall sight picture, and how much of my sight picture is occupied by my front sight, as a backup to how my cheekweld feels. When I check my NPA I check my head position as part of it, and if something isn't right I reset it so it is.
Hope this helps! Welcome to the world of smallbore, and best of luck to you!
Re: Newbie
Morty,
The previous poster makes the very valid point that any variation in the position of your cheek can have a big effect on your sight picture, and a consistent head position is definitely something to work for, even with the limitations of a club rifle. However it may not be the only cause. I have also noticed that the rearsight aperture appears much smaller when shooting outdoors, and my head position is not at fault. I've always put it down to ambient light; most indoor ranges are rather dark and gloomy, so it's not surprising that sight picture will not be the same as on a bright day outside. You may need to set the rearsight closer to your eye (a shorter eye relief) when shooting outdoors than indoors. Just don't do this during a card, as it will alter the vertical position of your group.
If the rifle has an adjustable iris eyepiece, or a 6-aperture eyepiece, do check that you were using your normal aperture.
The previous poster makes the very valid point that any variation in the position of your cheek can have a big effect on your sight picture, and a consistent head position is definitely something to work for, even with the limitations of a club rifle. However it may not be the only cause. I have also noticed that the rearsight aperture appears much smaller when shooting outdoors, and my head position is not at fault. I've always put it down to ambient light; most indoor ranges are rather dark and gloomy, so it's not surprising that sight picture will not be the same as on a bright day outside. You may need to set the rearsight closer to your eye (a shorter eye relief) when shooting outdoors than indoors. Just don't do this during a card, as it will alter the vertical position of your group.
If the rifle has an adjustable iris eyepiece, or a 6-aperture eyepiece, do check that you were using your normal aperture.
Re: Newbie
Thanks for the insights mtncwru - I have been noting the position of handstop and sling buckle but it hadn't occurred to me that the rear sight might have been adjusted as well.
Fascinating articles - especially interesting about the aperture sizes - increases the urgency for me to get my own rifle...
I "think" I am getting my head in the same place each time but I don't have a system like you have described so I guess I'm probably not!
Incidentally one of the articles talks about eye dominance, and although I am a right hander I know from shotgun shooting I am quite left eye dominant. Rather than try and retrain myself as a leftie I have seen that you can get a device that acts like a sideways periscope so that it is possible to aim with the left eye - do you know if this is worth investigating or is it a gimmick?
thanks again
atb.
Fascinating articles - especially interesting about the aperture sizes - increases the urgency for me to get my own rifle...
I "think" I am getting my head in the same place each time but I don't have a system like you have described so I guess I'm probably not!
Incidentally one of the articles talks about eye dominance, and although I am a right hander I know from shotgun shooting I am quite left eye dominant. Rather than try and retrain myself as a leftie I have seen that you can get a device that acts like a sideways periscope so that it is possible to aim with the left eye - do you know if this is worth investigating or is it a gimmick?
thanks again
atb.
Re: Newbie
Thanks Tim,
That makes perfect sense about the ambient light when outdoors, the club's indoor range is pretty dim esp at the firing point end... and might have a lot to do with today's confusion because the gun was sighted to 50m when I got it - and at our club the 50m is outdoor - so if the previous user had set it up on a bright day like it was today then they might well have moved the sight closer, so when I went indoors with it the space around the rearsight was strangely large.
cheers.
That makes perfect sense about the ambient light when outdoors, the club's indoor range is pretty dim esp at the firing point end... and might have a lot to do with today's confusion because the gun was sighted to 50m when I got it - and at our club the 50m is outdoor - so if the previous user had set it up on a bright day like it was today then they might well have moved the sight closer, so when I went indoors with it the space around the rearsight was strangely large.
cheers.
Re: Newbie
Morty,
You don't necessarily need a system to get your head in the same place every time. Matt Chezem, the 2014 USA Shooting Prone champion, doesn't use one and never has. Head position on the cheekpiece has just never been an issue for him. It is, however, something you should be aware of, especially if you're getting vertical stringing in your groups.
I hope you find the USA Shooting articles helpful. There are many more available at http://www.usashooting.org/11-resources ... nstruction, if you're interested.
Tim S. raises an EXCELLENT point about your aperture. If it's adjustable, make sure that it's set to it's usual settings. I would agree that the changes in lighting conditions are likely responsible for the change in sight picture, but it's worth making sure the settings you're using are, in fact, YOUR settings.
As for the periscope gizmo, if you're having trouble with eye dominance and a blinder/occluder isn't helping, then it's something to consider. The only people I've met who actually benefitted from them, though, were people who were blind in one eye. The cross-dominant folks I've worked with all found them to be not worth the hassle and expense, and just used a blinder instead. Again, not to say it wouldn't work well for you, just that I suspect you will not be held back without it, and that you would likely see more and better gains from spending the money on more ammo or some one-on-one time with a good coach.
~MTN
You don't necessarily need a system to get your head in the same place every time. Matt Chezem, the 2014 USA Shooting Prone champion, doesn't use one and never has. Head position on the cheekpiece has just never been an issue for him. It is, however, something you should be aware of, especially if you're getting vertical stringing in your groups.
I hope you find the USA Shooting articles helpful. There are many more available at http://www.usashooting.org/11-resources ... nstruction, if you're interested.
Tim S. raises an EXCELLENT point about your aperture. If it's adjustable, make sure that it's set to it's usual settings. I would agree that the changes in lighting conditions are likely responsible for the change in sight picture, but it's worth making sure the settings you're using are, in fact, YOUR settings.
As for the periscope gizmo, if you're having trouble with eye dominance and a blinder/occluder isn't helping, then it's something to consider. The only people I've met who actually benefitted from them, though, were people who were blind in one eye. The cross-dominant folks I've worked with all found them to be not worth the hassle and expense, and just used a blinder instead. Again, not to say it wouldn't work well for you, just that I suspect you will not be held back without it, and that you would likely see more and better gains from spending the money on more ammo or some one-on-one time with a good coach.
~MTN
Re: Newbie
Hi Monty - as usual, Tim is on the money here. The ambient light indoors is much weaker causing the pupil of your eye to dilate more than it does outdoors where the ambient light is stronger. This is what produces the effect you have observed and the answer is to have different eye relief settings for indoors and outdoors.
The size of the rear aperture is a different can of worms.
Those three articles really are full of great information.
Ken.
The size of the rear aperture is a different can of worms.
Those three articles really are full of great information.
Ken.
Re: Newbie
Rearsight position is quite important. The position of the rearsight relative to your eye is called eye relief. In a nutshell eye relief governs the depth of your focus; the tiny aperture narrows and elongates your focus so you can see the foresight clearly, and the target almost as clearly. A shorter eye relief makes for a brighter sight picture, but the foresight won't be as sharp, and a longer eye relied gives a sharper focus, but a darker sight picture. Correct eye relief is a compromise of focus and brightness, especially with a club rifle.Morty wrote:I have been noting the position of handstop and sling buckle but it hadn't occurred to me that the rear sight might have been adjusted as well.
I'd suggest keeping a note of the rearsight's position. Most people seem to measure the gap from the front of the rearsight clamp to the back of the breech opening. Depending on the age of your rifle, the dovetail on the action may be inscribed with a handy scale, but if not then a piece of target card cut to size will do the job.
As for shooting RH and aiming LH, as above this isn't recommended unless the sight in your right eye is impaired. Periscope sights have been made, but can darken the sight picture too much; outrigger blocks that offset both sights 3-4in seem more common. It's actually more common to aim with the non-dominant eye and simply cover the dominant eye. If you don't do this already make yourself a blinder from opaque plastic. Milk jugs are a good source. The bilder can be slipped through a headband, or hatband, or clipped onto the rifle (magnetic door catches are ideal).
Kenny makes an interesting point about aperture size. If your club rifle has a simple disc eyepiece, you don't need top worry about the size. However many rifles have a variable size aperture, so the shooter can tweak the size of the aperture to compensate for ambient light, and maintain a constant sight picture; reducing aperture size in brighter light, and enlarging the aperture in dim light. Some shooters will also vary the foresight aperture.
Re: Newbie
Thanks guys, that is all really helpful.
I do currently block my left eye with a piece of target card taped to the shooting glasses so reckon I'll stick to that for the foreseeable.
The rearsight on the gun I use is just the disc with a hole in type, it also has a cup which I find helpful with concentrating on the sight picture, so not adjustable - very interesting point you make Tim about the compromise between focus and brightness when changing the eye relief - I will play with that next time and try and get a sense of where to set myself.
Well I read somehwere that a bad day at the range is a good day for learning something - certainly true of this one.
Cheers all.
I do currently block my left eye with a piece of target card taped to the shooting glasses so reckon I'll stick to that for the foreseeable.
The rearsight on the gun I use is just the disc with a hole in type, it also has a cup which I find helpful with concentrating on the sight picture, so not adjustable - very interesting point you make Tim about the compromise between focus and brightness when changing the eye relief - I will play with that next time and try and get a sense of where to set myself.
Outside in the bright sun I was getting vertical groups! and was aware that I was searching for a good sight picture by moving the eye position especially when the sun went behind a cloud and it looked v different suddenly... didn't realise it would cause the aim to change.mtncwru wrote: It is, however, something you should be aware of, especially if you're getting vertical stringing in your groups.
Well I read somehwere that a bad day at the range is a good day for learning something - certainly true of this one.
Cheers all.
Re: Newbie
Morty,
Moving your head back and forth can certainly cause vertical stringing; when you move your head you are changing the height of your eye relative to the rearsight, so to keep the foresight centred you will be unconsciously moving the muzzle up and down.
However changes in ambient light can have the same effect. When the light gets brighter, the contrast between the black target and the pale background increases. This has the effect of making the target appear smaller, and when this happens you tend to aim a little low. When the light dims, the contrast decreases, the target appears larger, and you shoot a little high.
There are means to compensate for changing light; common responses are to tweak the size of the foresight aperture to maintain a steady ratio to the target, and to use coloured filters or polarised filters in the eyepiece to decrease the contrast. With a basic club rifle, these aren't options for you, so instead you have to be aware of any changes, and either wait out any big ones, or fire a few sighters to see what the effect is and readjust the rearsight to compensate.
Regarding your blinder, target card isn't the best material. If it works, that's fine, but an opaque material may be more comfortable. Your eyes are designed to work as a pair, but putting on into darkness, and exposing one to a beam of light, confuses things. The brain wants to make the left pupil larger, and the right pupil smaller. This can tire your eyes prematurely. An opaque material allows your eyes to react naturally, but prevents the dominant left from taking over.
Moving your head back and forth can certainly cause vertical stringing; when you move your head you are changing the height of your eye relative to the rearsight, so to keep the foresight centred you will be unconsciously moving the muzzle up and down.
However changes in ambient light can have the same effect. When the light gets brighter, the contrast between the black target and the pale background increases. This has the effect of making the target appear smaller, and when this happens you tend to aim a little low. When the light dims, the contrast decreases, the target appears larger, and you shoot a little high.
There are means to compensate for changing light; common responses are to tweak the size of the foresight aperture to maintain a steady ratio to the target, and to use coloured filters or polarised filters in the eyepiece to decrease the contrast. With a basic club rifle, these aren't options for you, so instead you have to be aware of any changes, and either wait out any big ones, or fire a few sighters to see what the effect is and readjust the rearsight to compensate.
Regarding your blinder, target card isn't the best material. If it works, that's fine, but an opaque material may be more comfortable. Your eyes are designed to work as a pair, but putting on into darkness, and exposing one to a beam of light, confuses things. The brain wants to make the left pupil larger, and the right pupil smaller. This can tire your eyes prematurely. An opaque material allows your eyes to react naturally, but prevents the dominant left from taking over.
Re: Newbie
Thanks TIm,
I'll exchange the card for something opaque.
What you describe re the effect of changing light intesity makes a lot of sense with what I was experiencing on Sunday - I guess that's why being able to set the cheek in the same place on the stock each time as a matter of course without reference to the sight picture is a useful technique to have...
I'll exchange the card for something opaque.
What you describe re the effect of changing light intesity makes a lot of sense with what I was experiencing on Sunday - I guess that's why being able to set the cheek in the same place on the stock each time as a matter of course without reference to the sight picture is a useful technique to have...
Re: Newbie
Morty,
ideally consistent head position isn't so much a question of technique, but more a function of rifle fit. The cheekpiece should be positioned and shaped so it lines up your eye dead behind the aperture. The shooter will be aware of the fit, but more of when it doesn't fit, as that means that their body alignment is off, or the butt isn't properly seated in their shoulder. Relying on muscle power and memory to position the head/eye is a bit hit and miss, as muscles tire; I have shot the odd group without a cheekpiece, but I wouldn't do it for a competition card or match.
Hopefully your club rifle will fit well enough, but I wouldn't expect a perfect fit (often the cheekpiece is a little low). This is something you have to live with about club rifles, so consistent head position iwill require conscious effort, although your club may be happy for you to build up the cheekpeice with card and tape to improve the fit.
ideally consistent head position isn't so much a question of technique, but more a function of rifle fit. The cheekpiece should be positioned and shaped so it lines up your eye dead behind the aperture. The shooter will be aware of the fit, but more of when it doesn't fit, as that means that their body alignment is off, or the butt isn't properly seated in their shoulder. Relying on muscle power and memory to position the head/eye is a bit hit and miss, as muscles tire; I have shot the odd group without a cheekpiece, but I wouldn't do it for a competition card or match.
Hopefully your club rifle will fit well enough, but I wouldn't expect a perfect fit (often the cheekpiece is a little low). This is something you have to live with about club rifles, so consistent head position iwill require conscious effort, although your club may be happy for you to build up the cheekpeice with card and tape to improve the fit.
Re: Newbie
Thanks Tim - that makes sense.
I currently have a variation pending on my ticket which will allow me to get my own rifle, so from your comments about the cheekpiece fit - and I think the club one is too low for me as you suspected - should I then be looking for something with an adjustble cheekpiece?
I have many questions - appreciating your patience.
I currently have a variation pending on my ticket which will allow me to get my own rifle, so from your comments about the cheekpiece fit - and I think the club one is too low for me as you suspected - should I then be looking for something with an adjustble cheekpiece?
I have many questions - appreciating your patience.
Re: Newbie
Morty,
yes. I'd normally say an adjustable cheekpiece is a must-have when buying your own rifle. Thankfully it's not that difficult to find, unless your buget is very tight. If you are looking to buy an Anschutz Supermatch or Prone model, an adjustable cheekpice has been a standard fittimg since the 1970s. Contemporary Walther and Feinwerkbau Supermatch rifles will also have an adjustable cheeckpiece. Exactly how the cheekpiece adjusts, and how much it adjusts depends on the age and model. Even most Standard Rifles (the entry level model) made since 1980 or so can be adjusted by packing wedges under the cheekpiece. If you are handy at woodwork an older rifle with a fixed cheekpiece can be modified.
If you look here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46644 there are some useful tips on picking a second hand rifle.
In my experience getting the cheekpiece to fit really well often means altering the shape as well as adjusting the height (and any other built-in movement) so your cheek can only go in one place, which is the right place. Go to an open match, or even look around at your club, and you'll likely see many shooters who have carved out the cheekpiece, or added plastic wood, or even made a new one from scratch, all to customise the fit.
yes. I'd normally say an adjustable cheekpiece is a must-have when buying your own rifle. Thankfully it's not that difficult to find, unless your buget is very tight. If you are looking to buy an Anschutz Supermatch or Prone model, an adjustable cheekpice has been a standard fittimg since the 1970s. Contemporary Walther and Feinwerkbau Supermatch rifles will also have an adjustable cheeckpiece. Exactly how the cheekpiece adjusts, and how much it adjusts depends on the age and model. Even most Standard Rifles (the entry level model) made since 1980 or so can be adjusted by packing wedges under the cheekpiece. If you are handy at woodwork an older rifle with a fixed cheekpiece can be modified.
If you look here viewtopic.php?f=6&t=46644 there are some useful tips on picking a second hand rifle.
In my experience getting the cheekpiece to fit really well often means altering the shape as well as adjusting the height (and any other built-in movement) so your cheek can only go in one place, which is the right place. Go to an open match, or even look around at your club, and you'll likely see many shooters who have carved out the cheekpiece, or added plastic wood, or even made a new one from scratch, all to customise the fit.