Are there reports of catastrophic cylinder failures??

[David Levene]

If someone can cite an example of date marking on these guns or in their manuals, then of course I'm wrong. ........

http://www.weihrauch-sport.de/seiten/en ... inder.html

http://diana-airguns.de/fileadmin/pdf/g ... _P1000.pdf

http://www.umarex.com/fileadmin/product ... .00.72.pdf

I'm getting bored now. I'm sure you can find more yourself if you want to FredB

[robf]

ISSF are simply adopting the same 10 year limit as apply to all of the European manufacturers under European law.

So why doesn't this law apply to non-10M PCPs made by the same European manufacturers (and others)?

Are you saying that it doesn't?

As far as I'm aware they all have to put a maximum 10 year validity on their cylinders.

Yes, I am saying that it doesn't. I have not seen a single European non-10M PCP that has any indication on it of a 10 year validity. The couple of guns that I own do not mention anything of the sort in their manuals. If someone can cite an example of date marking on these guns or in their manuals, then of course I'm wrong. But I've asked on TT for examples a couple of times with no response.

If there is no marking on the gun or the manual indicating a maximum 10 year validity, for all practical purposes there is no such limitation.

I have. My Steyr LG110 FT and most of my Walther LG300's are all non 10m rifles, but they use the same cylinders as 10m and are marked up as per the 10m cylinders. AFAIK Walther and Steyr don't make cylinders for +6ft-lb different to the 10m cylinders, indeed the part numbers for Walther cylinders are the same throughout their range. I believe this is the same for Anschutz and FWB as well.

It hasn't been they were stamped until recently (a few years), so it could well be you've got older rifles than the regulations being passed. That's not unknown, I've seen cylinders over 2 years from manufacture being sold new, and some stuff sits on shelves for a very long time. A quick email to the manufacturer may reveal the date they were made.

I can supply pictures if you like.

[FredB]

Thanks for the information, David and robf. It's clear that I was wrong regarding removable cylinders on Euro non-10M PCPs. My experience with non-10M PCPs has been with guns that have fixed pressure containers - not removable cylinders - all manufactured more than 2 years ago. I wonder if the current fixed cylinder PCPs have the same warnings as the removable cylinder ones? Certainly the risks would be the same.

FredB

[BigAl]

Thanks for the information, David and robf. It's clear that I was wrong regarding removable cylinders on Euro non-10M PCPs. My experience with non-10M PCPs has been with guns that have fixed pressure containers - not removable cylinders - all manufactured more than 2 years ago. I wonder if the current fixed cylinder PCPs have the same warnings as the removable cylinder ones? Certainly the risks would be the same.

FredB

It seems that in Germany they cannot or do not wish to manufacture air rifles with fixed cylinders. I believe this is related to GERMAN legislation on the carriage of compressed gas cylinders in motor vehicles, which I understand require that the cylinder be empty. I occasionally work for a firearms dealer specialising in "sporting" air rifles. through this I have contact with most of the major UK manufacturers of these rifles. They all have fixed cylinders (except the Air Arms S200 which is made by CZ). None of the rifles have dated cylinders. As stated in my previous post on this subject I was told by the boss of Daystate that they have no concerns about air cylinder life. Actually the comment was to the effect that if we did have to worry it might be an issue for our grandkids, but we would not be around to see it.

I did neglect to mention the one catastrophic cylinder failure that I know of. That happened to a Theoben Mk1. The shooter lost an eye and most of his left hand. It was not the cylinders fault though, he had filled it with O2!!!! The gun exploded when he fired it and the O2 came into contact with oil/grease in the gun's mechanism. I have seen the photographs of the gun after this incident. What is worse is that the guy worked with O2 a lot in his job, so one would think he would have understood the risk he was taking.

Alan

[FrankD]

It seems that in Germany they cannot or do not wish to manufacture air rifles with fixed cylinders. I believe this is related to GERMAN legislation on the carriage of compressed gas cylinders in motor vehicles, which I understand require that the cylinder be empty.

Hi Alan,

no, this is not true. You can carry your cylinders in or outside of your air guns without to empty the cylinders. This small cylinders do not fall under any special Law in Germany which regulates theirs use or use time. This use time rule comes only from the manufactures.


Regards

Frank

[David Levene]

This small cylinders do not fall under any special Law in Germany which regulates theirs use or use time. This use time rule comes only from the manufactures.

I think you'll find that it's actually European legislation which is adopted by EU countries.

[FrankD]

I think you'll find that it's actually European legislation which is adopted by EU countries.

Hi David,

sorry, i do not understand. I can be wrong, but as fare as i know there is nothing adopted. What do you mean? This only empty carrying thing or the 10 years rule? As i said the first is at this time not valid for Germany and the second thing is 'only' an agreement between the German air gun manufacturers association. But surely this agreement has consequences for the user. If it comes to an accident behind this 10 years use time the user has no insurance cover and he can convicted for acted grossly negligent.


Regards

Frank

[David Levene]

I think you'll find that it's actually European legislation which is adopted by EU countries.

sorry, i do not understand. I can be wrong, but as fare as i know there is nothing adopted. What do you mean? This only empty carrying thing or the 10 years rule? As i said the first is at this time not valid for Germany and the second thing is 'only' an agreement between the German air gun manufacturers association. But surely this agreement has consequences for the user. If it comes to an accident behind this 10 years use time the user has no insurance cover and he can convicted for acted grossly negligent.

Sorry Frank, I thought you were talking about the 10 year rule but now see that you were talking about the empty carrying.

With regard to the 10 year rule, it's much more than just an agreement between the manufacturers. Some time ago someone posted details of the European Directives on TT that define the 10 year limit. As you are probably aware, these directives are automatically adopted by the individual EU countries and become their law.

I'll see if I can find the details of that original post later this evening.

[jps2486]

What if you have a spare cylinder that was never used? As long as it isn't damaged or corroded, it should be as good as a new one. These pressure vessels should be limited by refill cycles, not calendar age. Fatigue isn't caused by age.

[rmca]

What if you have a spare cylinder that was never used? As long as it isn't damaged or corroded, it should be as good as a new one. These pressure vessels should be limited by refill cycles, not calendar age. Fatigue isn't caused by age.

I didn't want to get back into this discussion, but here it goes...

jps2486

How would you tell which cylinder had been filed a 100.000 times from the one that hadn't?
And even if you did, (I am assuming different colors on the cylinders) how would anyone else know?

Think about it... No one likes this rule, but a time stamp is the cheapest way that can provide some safeguard, no matter how rare stress failures might be.
Do a search on this subject here on TT, this subject has been debated to death and beyond!!!

Hope this helps

[Rover]

I totally agree with RMCA on this one.

Therefore, totally ignore the rule for your own mental health.

If anyone gives you a hard time about this, consider them an Obama voter and give them a hearty bitch-slap.

[Muffo]

I think you'll find that it's actually European legislation which is adopted by EU countries.

sorry, i do not understand. I can be wrong, but as fare as i know there is nothing adopted. What do you mean? This only empty carrying thing or the 10 years rule? As i said the first is at this time not valid for Germany and the second thing is 'only' an agreement between the German air gun manufacturers association. But surely this agreement has consequences for the user. If it comes to an accident behind this 10 years use time the user has no insurance cover and he can convicted for acted grossly negligent.

Sorry Frank, I thought you were talking about the 10 year rule but now see that you were talking about the empty carrying.

With regard to the 10 year rule, it's much more than just an agreement between the manufacturers. Some time ago someone posted details of the European Directives on TT that define the 10 year limit. As you are probably aware, these directives are automatically adopted by the individual EU countries and become their law.

I'll see if I can find the details of that original post later this evening.

Why did morini have 20 year limits untill just recently

[rmca]

Why did morini have 20 year limits untill just recently

Morini's address: Via Ai Gelsi 1,1CH-6930 Bedano, Switzerland

Although Switzerland is in Europe it's not a part of the European Union, and therefore not obliged by it's rules.

Hope this helps

[sparky]

I laugh when folks say this was a measure for ISSF, USAS, and other organizations to avoid liability. By creating a standard (10 year rule), they've assumed liability. Now, if anyone gets hurt if/when a cylinder blows at a match and the cylinder is newer than 10 years, ISSF and the sub-organizations will be sued for setting an inadequate safety standard.

What they should've done: Have every competitor registering for a match acknowledge in writing that they have taken all measures necessary to ensure that there equipment is in proper, safe, working order and that they are personally liable for the safety of all of their shooting equipment.

This puts the onus on the competitor to make sure their equipment is safe, rather than the organization assuming responsibility by setting a standard.

[jps2486]

What if you have a spare cylinder that was never used? As long as it isn't damaged or corroded, it should be as good as a new one. These pressure vessels should be limited by refill cycles, not calendar age. Fatigue isn't caused by age.

I didn't want to get back into this discussion, but here it goes...

jps2486

How would you tell which cylinder had been filed a 100.000 times from the one that hadn't?
And even if you did, (I am assuming different colors on the cylinders) how would anyone else know?

Think about it... No one likes this rule, but a time stamp is the cheapest way that can provide some safeguard, no matter how rare stress failures might be.
Do a search on this subject here


n TT, this subject has been debated to death and beyond!!!

Hope this helps

Like aircraft parts, you have to document operational cycles. But this us the USA not the EU, so I'll chose to ignore this BS until more evidence is presented of a real hazard.

[David Levene]

But this us the USA not the EU, so I'll chose to ignore this BS until more evidence is presented of a real hazard.

Everyone anywhere in the world is free to ignore it (at their own risk), unless they want to enter a match where it's being enforced.

[rmca]

I laugh when folks say this was a measure for ISSF, USAS, and other organizations to avoid liability. By creating a standard (10 year rule), they've assumed liability. Now, if anyone gets hurt if/when a cylinder blows at a match and the cylinder is newer than 10 years, ISSF and the sub-organizations will be sued for setting an inadequate safety standard.

It´s no one's fault but the athlete's!

6.7.7.1 Equipment Control Procedures
g) It is the athlete’s responsibility that any air or CO2 cylinder is
within manufacturer’s validity date (maximum of ten (10)
years); this may be checked by Equipment Control and
advisory recommendations may be given;

Hope this helps

[rmca]

Like aircraft parts, you have to document operational cycles. But this us the USA not the EU, so I'll chose to ignore this BS until more evidence is presented of a real hazard.

Do you really think that having a system in place, similar to those used in aviation, here if there was no record you couldn't shoot the gun, and the corresponding agencies to inspect and enforce that, would be cheaper than just replacing the cylinder every ten years!? Come on!!! Think!
Record logs = $ , inspections = $
And even then, who would register the number of fills on a cylinder? The owner? Right... that would work! (sarcasm)
Or would you build a system that records the number of fills the cylinder has gone tru? That would make a cylinder more heavy and a lot more expensive!
And even then you would have another problem... how many cycles would you be allowed to do before scraping the cylinder? That would be a really nice discussion... (sarcasm again!)

Everyone can ignore this rule, unless you shoot at an event here this is checked, no matter where you are in the world, but I believe that USA Shooting and the NRA are adopting similar measures. Someone from the USA can give you more details.

Hope this helps

[FredB]

Back to the original question.

The essential foundation of rational law and rule-making is evidence - not conjecture, not hypotheticals.

Where's the evidence?

[sparky]

I laugh when folks say this was a measure for ISSF, USAS, and other organizations to avoid liability. By creating a standard (10 year rule), they've assumed liability. Now, if anyone gets hurt if/when a cylinder blows at a match and the cylinder is newer than 10 years, ISSF and the sub-organizations will be sued for setting an inadequate safety standard.

It´s no one's fault but the athlete's!

6.7.7.1 Equipment Control Procedures
g) It is the athlete’s responsibility that any air or CO2 cylinder is
within manufacturer’s validity date (maximum of ten (10)
years); this may be checked by Equipment Control and
advisory recommendations may be given;

Hope this helps

It doesn't help! :-P
You still have the organizing body setting a standard "...(maximum of ten (10) years)..." If a cylinder fails in less than 10 years, a decent lawyer will show that that the organization took it upon themselves to determine the safety of cylinders by setting a standard (duty); that a cylinder failed in less than 10 years creating an unsafe situation (breach); that someone was injured (harm); and that the organizations establishing an inadequate safety measure led to the injury (proximate cause).