Pardini SP1-RF Slide Weight

[1917-1911M]

Can anyone tell me the weight of the complete slide in a Pardini SP1-RF? Slide, damper and firing pin. Thanks. M1911

[1917-1911M]

What I am looking for is the total weight of the moving parts that comprise the slide/bolt. Thanks again. M1911

[1917-1911M]

Is there some known formula for total pistol weight, slide weight/velocity and stabilizer rod weights for damping muzzle movement. Is anything written on this that might be applied to other pistols based on weight, slide weight that could be used to determined an approximate stabilizer rod weight.

Also, what tricks does Pardini use to keep the pistol from rotating to the left after slide stoppage? Most of these pistols are very stable and I want to understand why. M1911

[crankythunder]

I do not have a way to measure the weight of mine or I would have that figure for you. I also do not understand the phenomenon of rotating to the left when the slide stops. The bolt slides straight back and is not a rotating bolt.

As to what makes the pardini so stable on firing and recoiling, I think the six sliding weights that surround the barrel and their springs have a lot to do with it. You can remove them, replace them with heavier tungsten, or use a combination of both.

For fun, I removed all the weights out of the pistol and fired it and the recoil was significantly harsher.

Personally, I have four steel and two tungsten weights in my pardini. Not sure if it is any smoother then when I had six steel weights but it is a touch more muzzle heavy.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Cranky

[1917-1911M]

Thanks Cranky.....don't I know you from RFC or WaltherForums?

I purchased a small black digital scale at Walmart the other day. $14. It weighs to 11 pounds and in lbs or grams. It also has a scale for liquids and appears to be quite accurate. Good for the kitchen or gun bench.

Crete, in Crete is firing his 5" P22 in 25m competition and is pretty good with it. He won the bronze medal the other day. I had sent him a trigger/sear assembly that I dropped the weight on from 4.5 lbs to just over 1,000 grams. Competition pistols must have the pull measured before shooting. His is now 1,040 grams. He has added weight to the muzzle but it is all fixed and slo motion videos still show a lot of jump.

Regarding rotation to the left, it is the entire pistol. I notice this in a number of slow motion videos of various pistols including Standards. I don't know if it is due to the rifling, off center trigger pull or human anatomy when absorbing recoil. In any event....Standard pistols of nearly all makes have very little movement....of course, which is what they are designed to do. Those pistols are designed from the ground up with one purpose and they execute it well. Crete's heavy fixed weights are helping but he has no moving parts to help absorb the recoil.

I have designed several add on concepts that copy the Pardini system of a series of rods. These are all in a thread at WaltherForums in the P22 section ....thread....turning the P22 into a ISSF standard. Of course the P22 is a plinker but that never stopped me from having some fun and no one gets upset if I drill and sand and bang one around.

I have weighted my pistol...short barrel version 394 grams total with magazine and five 40 gr rounds. Light. The complete slide with breech block, safety, firing pin, extractor, etc. weighs 147 grams. There is no attachment for it with moving parts although one can be easily added to the rail or the 5" barrel if the stabilizer is left off. The stabilizer is simply a counterweight.

I've tried to see if there is any conclusion I can come to regarding the weight of the steel and tungsten weights in regard to pistol weight and more importantly the slide on the SP1 RF. Reading back in a thread here it seems the lighter slide has greater velocity for quicker cycling but that requires additional stabilizer weight. I'm trying to figure out where to start. That is all. I can place Remington GB in a 5" group at 25m with my short barrel P22 and stock sights off-hand but of course that isn't anywhere good enough. So, with a bridge mount to move the front blade out to 220 mm and the addition of a Pardini style dampening system....I might make an improvement to the pistol's recoil and minimize the rotation by adding more weight to the right side of the pistol. These do not have the huge, custom grip of course. One will never compete with a dedicated target pistol but.....that doesn't stop me from trying a few simple modifications to see where it goes. Thanks for responding and have a great day. M1911

[crankythunder]

I invest a lot in rimfire central.

Not wanting to complicate matters, but do you realize that Pardini makes two different weight slides for their sp new model?

They have the standard pistol of which is the one that I purchased.

They also have the rapid fire version which has a lighter weight slide. this model is specifically for international pistol rapid fire shooting.

Regards,
Cranky

[1917-1911M]

Yes, I see that they have different slides. I'm wanting the weight of the RF slide in the newest pistol. The one with the tungsten weights and the damper on the slide. Damper, slide and firing pin weight. The whole slide/bolt weight. I have to total pistol weight and rod weight. I'd also like to know where the balance point is. I read somewhere that Pardini balances their pistols at the chamber entrance. I don't think it was from an official Pardini site but some of you might know or be able to determine this. Thanks Cranky. M1911

[crankythunder]

Ok, looking for balance point......

Mine balances a little behind the breach of the barrel.. actually a little more then a little behind the breach of the barrel but not as far back as the opening of the ejection port.

Course I have a Aimpoint 9000 S red dot and the huge walnut Horton extra large grips that probably have somewhat of an influence on the balance point of the pistol.

Oh yeah, did I mention that I have a couple of tungstens out there on the end of the barrel?

In all seriousness, mine is a bit muzzle heavy but the walnut Horton grips are significantly heavier then the rink grips they replaced. probably why I like the tungstens out there in the barrel. Please note that I shoot higher scores with heavier pistols and am considering another pair of tungstens in the muzzle. I am also wondering if I had the local jewler make a set of weights out of 24 carat, if they would be a little bit heavier and a little bit cheaper.

To put this all together, the balance point as supplied/recommended by pardini is long forgotten in my pistol. probably different between the standard pistol and the rapid fire pistol too. At this point in time, I have to ask what exactly are you trying to do to the walther p22? I am curious and am leaning towards a weight and spring cartridge mounted under the barrel using a weaver/picatiny rail. Let me know how close I am. pictures would be greatly appreciated!

Cheers!

Regards,
Cranky

[1917-1911M]

Here is the prototype. I hate to be dragging a P22 into the discussion over here with all these Olympic pistols. On the other hand member Crete is shooting ISSF 25m with his old 2003 model 5" P22 and doing pretty good with it. He took bronze the other day while going up against the big name pistols. That got me to trying to hit something at 25m with my short barrel '09 model with about 21,000 rounds through it. I was able to group in the 5" to 8" range with Remington golden bullets. Not good I know....but I'm old and shaky. And, have never tried my hand at shooting a pistol that far.

Crete can put em in the 10 ring and keep the rest in the 9 ring. That set me to thinking about what else I could do to the P22 to add to all the other stuff I've changed on them over the years. Crete posted pictures of about a dozen of the best pistols and I began to watch some videos of these being fired in international shooting events. They don't recoil much and not to be outdone......I began planning how to make the P22 behave in a more civil manner. The problem is that it is a plinker and not intended as a target pistol. Walther already makes several models of those. Still, I've never seen one of these fancy pistols much less fired one.

Above I have added a few things to an old P22 in an attempt to stabilize muzzle rise similar to what a SP1 RF. I realize that Pardini has spared no detail in making the pistol a target pistol from weight, to sight distance, to placing the slide and the grip as close to the center line of the bore as possible. The tungsten weights account for appx 22.5 percent of the entire weight of the SP1 RF. I have weighed all main parts of the P22, entire pistol, slide, etc. My short pistol weighs 491g with the hammer strut removed. It has an over-travel and pre-travel device. Trigger movement in total is 3/16". This could be reduced even more. Removal of the hammer strut allows almost instant resetting of the trigger. In addition I have lowered the hammer hooks (there are two), undercut the sear arms (two again), made sure they are square and changed the primary angle of engagement from the stock 104 degrees positive to 91.5 degrees positive. This drops the hammer weight to under two lbs. I had to stone just a bit more positive angle into Crete's pistol as he shoots competition where the pistol must qualify before shooting. I sent him a sear and hammer set up in one of my pistols and it appears to be working pretty good for him. His breaks at 1,040g.

The P22 of course is a full external slide pistol, made of cast zamac except for the polymer grip. So, the first question is to I hang weight off the barrel sleeve and possibly upset something related to the barrel or do I hang something off the rail on the grip housing. For the present and using what was laying around I have cobbled on two scope rings, inserted a 1" piece of Poplar dowel. Drilled the center for a 1/4" x 6" bolt. On the bolt I have placed a P22 magazine spring and then a series of steel washers followed by a spacer to lightly compress the spring. This should operate in a manner similar to the Pardini RF. Of course this is very crude and I'm guessing in the dark. I have a machinist lined up to make real parts using whatever metal I want for the base, I will have to determine what springs and rods of any size and material I want including tungsten.

But, before designing all of that, I need to experiment some and see if any of this is worthwhile. What is pictured above is a simple device that allows me to change springs, change spring pre-load, change sliding weights, etc. 30 washers gives the now heavier P22 a 22% sliding mass. Pardini of course had the benefit of everything none of which I have but....I haven't ever let that stop me. The weakest link is the rail. I will have to brace the end of the steel rod against the trigger guard and I will start with probably 10 washers. 40 are pictured. I have yet to determine a method for figuring out if the spring will be compressed solid. If so I have an old .45 recoil spring that I can cut to length and it wont' be compressed solid. This is the kind of stuff I fool around with on this pistol. Not an heirloom, not expensive and plenty of parts are available. Besides, I want to see Crete take the gold. There is a thread on this at WaltherForums, P22 section. I have just abut dropped out of RFC. Good crew, I just seem to be over at Walther more and soon might be here a good deal more. There are some members here with impressive knowledge but no one seems to know the weight of the RF slide. Hope all of that makes sense. M1911

[1917-1911M]

I would of course like to know the weight of the springs in the Rf as well as their length and diameter, spring wire diameter, etc. I can count the coils from pictures I've seen. Six springs with 35 g tungsten weights wrapped around the barrel but attached to the frame will likely perform much better than one spring and one weight attached well below the bore axis.....but there is only so much I can do. Walther does offer a 5" barrel with a stabilizer. So there is a possibility of machining something with six weights that are much closer to the bore and where recoil will be carried to the frame. I also have plans for adding a sight bridge for that 120m sight distance. Again the slide complicates things. It is thin, very, very thin and the barrel sleeve runs right below the top. Same problem with the rear of the slide and attaching better optics or iron sights. The firing pin lightly rubs the underside of the slide.

I plan on attaching a thin, proper sight blade to the existing rear sight. The existing sight has a windage adjustment, no clicks. Elevation is adjusted by different height sight blades. I'll worry about that later. What I'm looking for now are better groups with the longer barrel and longer sight distance and a more stable pistol for quicker follow up. M1911

[1917-1911M]

The balance point above with 40 washers is the rear nut just in front of the trigger guard with 5 rounds on board. I expect 40 is too much weight. 30 washers would give the pistol the same weight percentage, pistol to sliding bars of the Pardini RF. 22.5% or thereabout. Nothing else is the same...or even close. The P22 does not have a large grip either. I realize I'm trying to go somewhere the P22 was never designed to go. I don't care. I need more information, and a machine shop, and pistols....fancy, straight shooting ones. And, straight bullets too. M1911

[1917-1911M]

Doesn't anyone have a Pardini RF that they can weight the slide for me? I cannot find any information anywhere regarding the new slide's weight. Pardini won't tell me either. M1911

[Tycho]

98gr.

[ghostrip]

the mg2 standard (sn 4xxx) bolt is also about 95-100 grams.

[1917-1911M]

Thanks Tycho and ghostrip. Very much appreciated. The P22 slide weight 149g and sits quite high in relationship to the grip. This is a problem. The concept I posted earlier is of little benefit to damping rotational torque which is what I am largely dealing with. A similar damping device had been made but with the damper hanging down and at an 11 degree angle from vertical to match the rotational circle diameter. This has reduced muzzle lift considerably but the slim grips are not allowing much control regarding roll. My hand rolls to the left, then to the right in response to recoil. Just some fun we are having trying to understand all of this.

I am looking carefully at everything that has been done to the various Standard pistols. I figure that nothing is there by accident. Again thanks. M1911