The rise of Bleiker Rifles in world cup finals

svensta · Post by **svensta** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 5:56 pm

Just a comment after looking at the latest ISSF world cup videos on YouTube.

Especially in Prone (although there are enough in 3P too) I see Bleiker rifles in the majority.
Too rich for my blood and I plan on getting a 300kk in the near future but it seems that
the Anschutz dominance of perhaps 10-15 years ago is slipping at least among
the finalists.

Shifty · Post by **Shifty** » Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:08 pm

It's funny, it was only 4 or 5 hours ago I was reading some pages on a bench rest forum from 2009 where no one had heard of Bleiker and no one knew where they came from! I think at the time there were only one or two big names using their rifles. It's good to have some competition in manufacturers though, it keeps everyone striving to improve where they can.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:39 am

Shifty,

I'm not wholly surprised by that. BR forums are invariably US dominated, and most US BR shooters (at least at the top level) shoot US made custom rifles, built by specialists from components made by small specialist workshops.

Over here Bleiker were certainly well known in 2009. I think their big break was Marcel Buerge winning the World Championships in the 3x40 in 2002.

Back on topic, it's not unsurprising that more top level shooters are using Bleiker rifles. For many winning medals, or qualifying for the Olympic games is a job, so the cost would be justifiable if your scores improve. It's like buying a better tool, and no different to switching ammo, or jacket/trousers to wring out that last 0.1 point.

KennyB · Post by **KennyB** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:10 am

I think that part of the appeal is that if your Bleiker isn't performing as you would like, then you can take it back to Switzerland and they will work on it to get it back up to the level of accuracy that is required for top level competition.

Of course, if you are in the US or Australia then it is quite an expense getting your rife back to be serviced - and they do seem to need to be serviced.
"If it's broke - it's a Bleiker" is an expression I heard last year and seems to have a degree of truth to it.

If an Anschutz or Walther is are like Mercedes or BMW, then a Bleiker is like a Ferrari. That's my perception anyway.

K.

svensta · Post by **svensta** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:36 am

I have heard they are "fragile" compared to a regular 19/2013 supermatch.
Don't know what exactly goes wrong with them but was told the after purchase factory
service is not particularly good. Might be the truth or sour grapes.

KennyB · Post by **KennyB** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:00 am

Two problems that seem to be quite common are :

The loading platform can stick in the down position in hot conditions.

The locking lugs on the bolt can break.

I think that they are made to quite tight tolerances to achieve the level of accuracy - which in turn requires appropriate maintenance.

Most reports of Bleiker's after sales service that I've heard are positive but I suppose it might depend on who you are or who you go with....

However, I don't own one myself so this is all second hand information.

cmj · Post by **cmj** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:29 pm

Have not had those issues with the Bleiker. While is true no service in the US, they have been very good about sending parts as needed, most at no cost if needed, also a diagram is usually included on how to replace the part.

Dave IRL · Post by **Dave IRL** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:44 pm

Anschutz's domination in smallbore prone is certainly dead. Of the top 30 in the world ranking, four are using Anschutz rifles and their barrels today. Considering the extent to which they dominate across the board below the top level, that's a massive drop off in acceptance at that level.

gwsb · Post by **gwsb** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:01 pm

Kenny if they don't work in the heat it is no wonder no one in America uses them.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Thu Jun 26, 2014 2:10 pm

gwsb wrote:Kenny if they don't work in the heat it is no wonder no one in America uses them.

Except for Matt Emmons.

Seriously I suspect the lack of popularity is more due to the cost, combined with a long tradition of small custom rifle builders, and numerous specialist barrel makers. I'm rather envious of these.

Moore · Post by **Moore** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 9:39 pm

Tim S. summed up the benchrest rifle very well. It is a total custom made rifle using the finest custom parts. A couple years ago I had one of the finest built benchrest rimfire rifles and had the rare opportunity to test with known world cup shooter using a Bleiker rifle. We both were shooting from benches using sand bag rests, My custom Turbo action / Lilja barrel rifle did do just a wee bit better but not by much..We even switched rifles and the outcome was the same however I was very impressed with the accuracy of the Bleiker.. However I have yet to see the first one at a benchrest match, not saying there hasn't been, I just haven't heard of or saw any yet.But I believe if in a BR stock they could do very well.

justadude · Post by **justadude** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 10:54 pm

Anschutz's domination in smallbore prone is certainly dead. Of the top 30 in the world ranking, four are using Anschutz rifles and their barrels today. Considering the extent to which they dominate across the board below the top level, that's a massive drop off in acceptance at that level.

At one time, probably the 1970s Anschutz was pretty much it. Winchester had quit making target rifles (Model 52 Series) and folks who tried Walther seemed to have hit or miss luck with them. Anschutz also established a pretty robust import and parts supply network for the US market. They were easy to get and get parts for. By sheer numbers (market penetration) Anschutz was guaranteed to be used to win top honors.

Fast forward 40 years, Walther and Feinwerkbau have both been working very hard on developing their smallbore rifles, that are cost competitive with Anschutz, and getting them out to shooters. In the meantime, the heart of the Anschutz is the same basic bolt that was introduced in 1954 (Match 54 action) The bolt has had some updates, the trigger some major updates and the receiver has gone from round to square (19xx to 20xx) but this is still basically the same long skinny bolt from 1954. While Anschutz has been sleeping their competition has been up nights building a better rifle.

Bottom line, if Anschutz wants to maintain their claim to the title "Meistermacher" into the next decade, they are going to have to introduce a completely new action with a stiffer bolt and receiver.

Just my thoughts on the topic,

'Dude

dontshootcritters · Post by **dontshootcritters** » Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:55 pm

Hi guys
Ive owned a Challenger now for 4 years or so and it has been nothing but a pleasure to use and operate.Service from Bleiker was first class from day one with all emails answered and delivery date adhered to.They are ammo specific so by that unless stated I think they will be set for Eley.It would not surprise me in the slightlest if some of the issues have come from fools trying to force the wrong ammo into the breach!!
The only thing I don't like so much is there isn't a lot of rotation with the cheek piece.

Ulrich Eichstädt · Post by **Ulrich Eichstädt** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 3:17 am

Although we all (should) know that the person behind the rifle (or pistol) has not to be neglected when it comes to the reason for success, I would kindly like to point out:

Actual World Record and Final World Record 3 x 40 with 1186 points/443:
Nazar Louginets with a Walther KK300

Actual World Record Women 3 x 20: 592 points
Natallya Kalnysh, Walther KK300

Actual Shooter of the Year and Winner World Cup Final in 2013:
Henri Junghaenel, Walther KK300

(imagine that here you would see a 2 inch big smiley...)

Let's wait for the results at the World Championships in some weeks.

Cumbrian · Post by **Cumbrian** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:19 am

The Anschutz long bolt may or should be having an adverse effect on sales to lady shooters in particular because it makes loading that much more difficult for them. Two ladies in our little club have stuck with BSA Martini actions for this reason, whilst another has had the stock considerably shortened on a club Anschutz, which is probably not the ideal solution to the problem.

Ulrich Eichstädt · Post by **Ulrich Eichstädt** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:32 am

With a Martini-Action shooting 3-P? Interesting idea - everybody tries to stay on the ground with the right elbow in prone, which seems to me nearly impossible with a Martini-system (that's the main reason most switched to Bleiker, because the loading port is closer and better in reach). Or?

KennyB · Post by **KennyB** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:39 am

If we're looking for technical reasons for the Bleiker's performance, I think there are a couple of innovations that may be significant.

The firing pin striking the rim at 6 o'clock seems to reduce the spread in Muzzle Velocity - well according to the experiment done by Geoff Kolbe (now available again at http://www.geoffrey-kolbe.com/articles/ ... ng_pin.htm.

But also the Bleiker chamber seems to be split between the receiver and the barrel as can be seen here:

This might have the effect of reducing the energy transmitted to the barrel by the firing pin - on an Anschutz, the barrel face is the anvil against which the firing pin crushes the rim. Putting a gap between the "anvil" and the rest of the barrel would mean that compression wave created by the firing pin strike wouldn't travel directly down the barrel but would travel out and around the chamber and propagate in a much more diffuse manner.
This might result in a reduction in barrel vibrations at the bullet's exit of the muzzle - a bit of investigation might be possible if I can find a willing Blieker owner. [hint] [/hint]

Of course, the use of Lilja barrels might also be part of it but it seems there IS something special about the receiver (from what I've overheard).

(Also keeping your Bleiker clean is part of it. If the rifle in the picture doesn't shoot, I wouldn't be surprised...)

K.

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:03 am

Ulrich,

Two things:

Firstly, Martini actions have a very short breech, even shorter than the Bleiker. The BSA International rifles had the breech about 1.5in ahead of the trigger. You can load them very fast. The problem with most Martini rifles is the stock; due to the shape of the receiver and breech, conventional bedding is very difficult. Those who have installed BSA International rifles into a modern stock have either glued the receiver to the stock, or used the barrel as the fixing point.

Secondly, the majority of ISSF shooters (at least those that make the finals) raise their right (trigger hand) elbow to load the rifle. Some only raise it a little, just enough to drop the cartridge onto the breech tray, and other lift more and chamber the cartridge with a thumb or finger. The only shooters I've seen who tip the rifle over to load have been Eric Uptagrafft and Matt Emmons.

Kenny,

thanks for the photo. I think I understand Sam Huish's comment on Stirton about Bleiker chambers. If I'm seeing it right the first few mm of the chamber are formed from the receiver, the barrel does not do back against the bolt face?

Tim S · Post by **Tim S** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:15 am

Cumbrian wrote:The Anschutz long bolt may or should be having an adverse effect on sales to lady shooters in particular because it makes loading that much more difficult for them. Two ladies in our little club have stuck with BSA Martini actions for this reason, whilst another has had the stock considerably shortened on a club Anschutz, which is probably not the ideal solution to the problem.

Roger,

I well know this. Partly it's because older Anschutz wood stocks are sized for an average height adult man, and are too long for many women. I don't wholly agree that shortening the butt is bad; modern rifles do seem to be shorter at the back, witness your Gemini. When my wife shot prone she used a cut down 1811 Prone stock; butt-grip disance was about 10in. What doesn't help is a general horror among Bristish club shooters of altering a stock.

Stock shape is also a factor. Most women need a lighter rifle, which typically means a 1407 or 1807 ISU Standard model (unless they can afford to buy new/nearly new). Compared to a free rifle or alu stock, 1407 and 1807 stocks place the action much further forward from the grip, which exacerbates the difficulties not just of loading, but on occasion actually reaching the trigger.

With a modern stock that is the correct length, loading is usually much easier.

Ulrich Eichstädt · Post by **Ulrich Eichstädt** » Mon Jun 30, 2014 7:00 am

Tim, I know the Martini actions from BSA very well, having written many reviews, also about the Martini action itself (in general, also in pistols etc).

I was more thinking of the loading procedure itself, with moving the lever under the gun, then putting the cartridge into the port: much more down and up with the right hand.

Anyway, Martinis don't seem to be a solution in my opinion.

And if you watch the videos from the ISSF finals, you will surely see, how some of the shooters try to shove the cartridge into the chamber, with the help of the fingertips and a lot of fumbling. And certainly no smooth transfer without too much contacts of the bullet tip before entering the chamber.

For example in the Final 3 x 40 Maribor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej780Ya ... e=youtu.be
here especially minutes 1:40 to 1:50