Position of butt plate in shoulder
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Position of butt plate in shoulder
I hope this doesn't seem like too basic or naive a question, but should the butt plate or its upper curve, if it has one, extend across or over the collar bone for prone shooting? And should it be as close to the neck as possible, in which case it will impact much more on the collar bone but arguably be more secure and stable, or as far away as possible, towards the upper arm muscles? Before highly curved butt plates came in, I believe that they did not extend across the collar bone at all but finished below it in the fleshy part of the upper chest 'pocket' (for want of a correct anatomical definition). If this is so, was this a better idea? I ask because I suspect that my butt plate is too much in contact with my collar bone, despite all the layers of padding from jacket, sweater, and vest, and that this contact is producing erratic shots. Could this be the case? Very grateful for advice on this problem, which I can't find properly covered in past questions on this forum.
Cumbrian,
with a hook butt, yes the plate will often exten up over the collar bone; it's the basic rubber plate that tends to sit lower, due to size and limited vertical adjustment. And, yes it is normally placed close into the neck. However some successful shooters have the butt placed further out; if you look at photos of Sergei Martynov or Rajmond Debevec you'll see they have the butt placed out on their arm.
I'm right in thinking you use a Gemini butt? Remember that the top plate should be placed to the left of the bottom plate, so will sit further towards your neck than other designs.
Have a look at photos of Henri Junghaenel to see a well set up Gemini butt in use; n.b. Henri only uses the cantilever joint not the normal heel plate.
with a hook butt, yes the plate will often exten up over the collar bone; it's the basic rubber plate that tends to sit lower, due to size and limited vertical adjustment. And, yes it is normally placed close into the neck. However some successful shooters have the butt placed further out; if you look at photos of Sergei Martynov or Rajmond Debevec you'll see they have the butt placed out on their arm.
I'm right in thinking you use a Gemini butt? Remember that the top plate should be placed to the left of the bottom plate, so will sit further towards your neck than other designs.
Have a look at photos of Henri Junghaenel to see a well set up Gemini butt in use; n.b. Henri only uses the cantilever joint not the normal heel plate.
Tim,
Thank you for your reply - very helpful as usual.
Yes, I do have a Gemini stock, so it was illuminating to look at the pictures of Junghaenel's near identical butt hook, as you kindly suggested. From what I can see, his set up is not too far away from my own, though I could not make out the angle of the hook itself, which is only a detail perhaps, nor how far out from the neck he places the whole butt plate. I suppose photographers are not encouraged to take photos from the front right of a shooter, which is what I would need for a full assessment.
I'm still wondering about the merits of keeping the butt plate below the line of the collar bone altogether, if that would be possible. Maybe it is not possible, in which case I have misunderstood what they did back in the 1950s. Our club secretary, who has been shooting for 65 years, is insistent that the butt plate should not cross the collar bone at all.
Thank you for your reply - very helpful as usual.
Yes, I do have a Gemini stock, so it was illuminating to look at the pictures of Junghaenel's near identical butt hook, as you kindly suggested. From what I can see, his set up is not too far away from my own, though I could not make out the angle of the hook itself, which is only a detail perhaps, nor how far out from the neck he places the whole butt plate. I suppose photographers are not encouraged to take photos from the front right of a shooter, which is what I would need for a full assessment.
I'm still wondering about the merits of keeping the butt plate below the line of the collar bone altogether, if that would be possible. Maybe it is not possible, in which case I have misunderstood what they did back in the 1950s. Our club secretary, who has been shooting for 65 years, is insistent that the butt plate should not cross the collar bone at all.
Cumbrian,
yes it is possible to have the buttplate below the collar bone. However I would not bother trying with a Gemini butt; this is meant to sit higher. It's not just the Gemini, most other Free Rifle buttplates are long, and are not intended to sit low; take the Anschutz 4760 for example (the one used by Martynov and Uptagrafft) the heel will sit level with the top of the shoulder. Even smaller plates like the Bleiker and Grunig Extreme will sit over the collar bone. If talking about a modern hook buttplate, I have to disagree with your club secretary.
In the 1950s the buttplate sat under the collar bone because most rifles did not have an adjustable buttplate, and positions were physically much lower. The butt had to go low to be able to aim at the target. However this meant that only the top part of the plate actually made any contact.
I'll read a little into your question that you're not totally happy with the fit of your buttplate. You have my sympathy; Gemini butts are wonderful, but at the same time frustrating. It took me a long time to get it right, and periodically I still tinker. I would recommend finding a coach (or just an experienced shooter) who has experience with these to check the fit of yours. Don't use you club secretary! You can use a mirror to check yourself, or take photos or video (know anyone with a smartphone?). Also be aware of movement as you load or shoot. Depending on your location it might be worthwhile contacting Nibbs himself.
yes it is possible to have the buttplate below the collar bone. However I would not bother trying with a Gemini butt; this is meant to sit higher. It's not just the Gemini, most other Free Rifle buttplates are long, and are not intended to sit low; take the Anschutz 4760 for example (the one used by Martynov and Uptagrafft) the heel will sit level with the top of the shoulder. Even smaller plates like the Bleiker and Grunig Extreme will sit over the collar bone. If talking about a modern hook buttplate, I have to disagree with your club secretary.
In the 1950s the buttplate sat under the collar bone because most rifles did not have an adjustable buttplate, and positions were physically much lower. The butt had to go low to be able to aim at the target. However this meant that only the top part of the plate actually made any contact.
I'll read a little into your question that you're not totally happy with the fit of your buttplate. You have my sympathy; Gemini butts are wonderful, but at the same time frustrating. It took me a long time to get it right, and periodically I still tinker. I would recommend finding a coach (or just an experienced shooter) who has experience with these to check the fit of yours. Don't use you club secretary! You can use a mirror to check yourself, or take photos or video (know anyone with a smartphone?). Also be aware of movement as you load or shoot. Depending on your location it might be worthwhile contacting Nibbs himself.
Tim,
Thank you again. What you say about butt plates in the 1950s makes good sense. And, yes, I am struggling a bit with my Gemini, if I am right in thinking that an imperfect butt hook fitting may be causing erratic shots, though in my case there could be plenty of other reasons for them. Bit stuck for Gemini users in my little world unfortunately. I am beginning to think that I may need to get the whole butt somewhat further out onto the soft top part of the shoulder, above the arm, and away from the protuberant bony part. Anyway, grateful for your insight and sympathy.
Just stumbled on a related page on another forum, so our silent readers may like to be referred to targetshooting.co.nz, thread no. 8058, February 2012, where you and others helpfully discuss butt hooks, with some contributions about the contact points - or lack of - of butt plates in general.
Roger
Thank you again. What you say about butt plates in the 1950s makes good sense. And, yes, I am struggling a bit with my Gemini, if I am right in thinking that an imperfect butt hook fitting may be causing erratic shots, though in my case there could be plenty of other reasons for them. Bit stuck for Gemini users in my little world unfortunately. I am beginning to think that I may need to get the whole butt somewhat further out onto the soft top part of the shoulder, above the arm, and away from the protuberant bony part. Anyway, grateful for your insight and sympathy.
Just stumbled on a related page on another forum, so our silent readers may like to be referred to targetshooting.co.nz, thread no. 8058, February 2012, where you and others helpfully discuss butt hooks, with some contributions about the contact points - or lack of - of butt plates in general.
Roger
Hi Cumbrian,
yes absolutely a badly fitted buttplate can cause erratic shots. It's true of all buttplates, although the Gemini is more susceptible to this than other designs due to its complexity. I have seen some rather "interesting" Gemini variations, and wonder how the owner actually gets the thing into their shoulder!
I'm not sure that your desire to get the plate further out on your shoulder is a good idea. If you were using another buttplate, then yes this may work, but not with a Gemini because the plate itself is in two parts. In my experience the heel (top) plate should be close into the neck, over the trapezius muscle, and angled slightly inwards. The toe (lower) plate should be further out (centre or RH hole depending on your build), rotated around the fixing so the top is by the heel plate, and angled slightly outwards. The hook itself is positioned/angled where needed - the toe plate angle and rotation will need fine tuning here.
The HPS website used to have a very handy assembly slideshow, but that has been removed as Robert Nibbs (System Gemini) and Carmichael (HPS) have gone their separate ways. He may be willing to provide after sales advice however.
You're welcome to PM me.
Tim
yes absolutely a badly fitted buttplate can cause erratic shots. It's true of all buttplates, although the Gemini is more susceptible to this than other designs due to its complexity. I have seen some rather "interesting" Gemini variations, and wonder how the owner actually gets the thing into their shoulder!
I'm not sure that your desire to get the plate further out on your shoulder is a good idea. If you were using another buttplate, then yes this may work, but not with a Gemini because the plate itself is in two parts. In my experience the heel (top) plate should be close into the neck, over the trapezius muscle, and angled slightly inwards. The toe (lower) plate should be further out (centre or RH hole depending on your build), rotated around the fixing so the top is by the heel plate, and angled slightly outwards. The hook itself is positioned/angled where needed - the toe plate angle and rotation will need fine tuning here.
The HPS website used to have a very handy assembly slideshow, but that has been removed as Robert Nibbs (System Gemini) and Carmichael (HPS) have gone their separate ways. He may be willing to provide after sales advice however.
You're welcome to PM me.
Tim
Tim,
Many thanks once more. Yes, I remember that very instructive video. Am now experimenting with a complete wooden 1813 stock, buttplate etc. etc. May learn something - or there again, maybe not. Hope not to trouble you by pm but very grateful for offer. Away and off shooting now - except for rabbits - for a fortnight, which may do me good.
Odd that no one else has contributed.
Roger
Many thanks once more. Yes, I remember that very instructive video. Am now experimenting with a complete wooden 1813 stock, buttplate etc. etc. May learn something - or there again, maybe not. Hope not to trouble you by pm but very grateful for offer. Away and off shooting now - except for rabbits - for a fortnight, which may do me good.
Odd that no one else has contributed.
Roger
Hi Cumbrian,
yes, with an 1813 butt it can fit differently, as the plate is a single piece. Although some shooters would cant the plate, so the hook was moved away from the body.
Be aware that if it's the older style buttplate, the sort on the curved base, there is often very little contact with the shoulder except at the top and around the hook.
yes, with an 1813 butt it can fit differently, as the plate is a single piece. Although some shooters would cant the plate, so the hook was moved away from the body.
Be aware that if it's the older style buttplate, the sort on the curved base, there is often very little contact with the shoulder except at the top and around the hook.
Roger -
It is all but impossible to give someone fit advice online. Rifles, parts installed and anatomies vary way too much. You can find someone doing well with almost every variation that can be imagined and constructed. FWIW, I have the buttplate well inward toward my chest and positioned above and below my collar bone. I cannot use a lower butthook because the rifle is too far inward and the hook has to be angled out at 45 degrees. I modified my buttplate by adding an upper curved band of aluminum bar the width of the buttplate that is positioned on top of my shoulder area. That way I can easily set it in the same position every time and it stays put.
Dennis L
It is all but impossible to give someone fit advice online. Rifles, parts installed and anatomies vary way too much. You can find someone doing well with almost every variation that can be imagined and constructed. FWIW, I have the buttplate well inward toward my chest and positioned above and below my collar bone. I cannot use a lower butthook because the rifle is too far inward and the hook has to be angled out at 45 degrees. I modified my buttplate by adding an upper curved band of aluminum bar the width of the buttplate that is positioned on top of my shoulder area. That way I can easily set it in the same position every time and it stays put.
Dennis L
I've been holding off chipping in because I'm not sure about any of it.
For a long time I was of the belief that having the buttplate square to the line of the bore was the way to go - and ideally that it should contact the collarbone such that the bore is in line with it. That way all the recoil force goes squarely back onto something solid.
However, I've recently done some sums that suggest that the rifle only recoils by ~ 10 thou (0.25mm) while the bullet is still in the barrel so maybe it doesn't matter that much. Most of what we perceive as recoil actually happens after "Elvis has left the building" so to speak and so has little or no effect on shot placement.
I've also recently acquired a Gemini buttplate of my own and one thing I've noticed while setting it up is that (according to SCATT) by altering the setup I can seemingly vary my hold pattern...
One way I initially had it set gave no vertical movement due to pulse but it was all horizontal. Currently it's set so that the pattern goes up and down on the pulse then left to right in between - I hope with further tweaking I can get it to go just straight up and down with minimal horizontal movement between pulses - like my old SKB buttplate, or even better.
I think this might be more significant.
Of course, I could be completely wrong.
Ken.
For a long time I was of the belief that having the buttplate square to the line of the bore was the way to go - and ideally that it should contact the collarbone such that the bore is in line with it. That way all the recoil force goes squarely back onto something solid.
However, I've recently done some sums that suggest that the rifle only recoils by ~ 10 thou (0.25mm) while the bullet is still in the barrel so maybe it doesn't matter that much. Most of what we perceive as recoil actually happens after "Elvis has left the building" so to speak and so has little or no effect on shot placement.
I've also recently acquired a Gemini buttplate of my own and one thing I've noticed while setting it up is that (according to SCATT) by altering the setup I can seemingly vary my hold pattern...
One way I initially had it set gave no vertical movement due to pulse but it was all horizontal. Currently it's set so that the pattern goes up and down on the pulse then left to right in between - I hope with further tweaking I can get it to go just straight up and down with minimal horizontal movement between pulses - like my old SKB buttplate, or even better.
I think this might be more significant.
Of course, I could be completely wrong.
Ken.
Kenny B: What did you change to go from horizontal to a more vertical movement. I've been struggling with horizontal with the top of the buttplate up over my collar bone. It's very secure and tight and probably limits any vertical movement. Im using the Anschutz 4675 without the hook and the vertical post slanted forward about 15 to 20 degrees and the moveable upper piece slanted to the rear about 10 degrees to the rear. It forms a crooked V with the the boreline intersecting the buttplate about 1" above center. I'm shooting prone only. Mike Barron
Hi Mike, I'm still working on isolating the particular alteration that worked for me - I'm not good at keeping track of changes I make unfortunately. I used to be able to remember things in great detail but age has caught up with me and I haven't developed the habit of record keeping.
One thing that occurred to me last night while training was that the plate originally came with posts attached to clamp into the stock - very light weight. Transferring the thing to the original Anschutz carrier plate (which is much heavier) might have been when the hold pattern changed/improved(?). So it might be as simple as adding mass to the back of the rifle. It might also be down to canting less.
On last night's efforts, it doesn't seem to be to do with LOP, hook location or lateral placement but possibly the angle and location of the top wing.
I'm finding SCATT to be a bit twitchy until the sun goes down - so I don't have as much time as I'd like to fiddle during the summer months...
If I arrive at any conclusion I'll let you know.
Ken.
One thing that occurred to me last night while training was that the plate originally came with posts attached to clamp into the stock - very light weight. Transferring the thing to the original Anschutz carrier plate (which is much heavier) might have been when the hold pattern changed/improved(?). So it might be as simple as adding mass to the back of the rifle. It might also be down to canting less.
On last night's efforts, it doesn't seem to be to do with LOP, hook location or lateral placement but possibly the angle and location of the top wing.
I'm finding SCATT to be a bit twitchy until the sun goes down - so I don't have as much time as I'd like to fiddle during the summer months...
If I arrive at any conclusion I'll let you know.
Ken.
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Martin Catley
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Butt Plates
This to me is one of the most difficult "fittings" to get around and always see Club members fiddling with settings. This area seems to be possibly the most sensitive to pressure and variations affecting group placement. I recently had a couple of hairy scores and realised I had been pushing my elbow forward more than usual giving me lateral.
Is there a generally accepted method of setting up these modern Butt set ups. Like to the left of the Bore, slanting inwards, height relative to the Bore or whatever, forgetting about the more radical ideas around like some you see?
This is a question which always seems to crop up when discussing setting up a Rifle
Is there a generally accepted method of setting up these modern Butt set ups. Like to the left of the Bore, slanting inwards, height relative to the Bore or whatever, forgetting about the more radical ideas around like some you see?
This is a question which always seems to crop up when discussing setting up a Rifle
Re: Butt Plates
Martin,Martin Catley wrote:Is there a generally accepted method of setting up these modern Butt set ups. Like to the left of the Bore, slanting inwards, height relative to the Bore or whatever, forgetting about the more radical ideas around like some you see?
I think the short answer is no, at least for a universal formula. You can certainly have a good rule of thumb, but it would need to be adapted to the individual.
The same would be true of the shape of the butt. In a previous post I mentioned the recommended starting set up for a Gemini butt, this just the starting point. Discounting the plain wierd set ups, most Geminis I see look similar, but none are identical.