Just curious what recommendations good/bad people have had when ordering a custom barrel. We want to replace a 1907 with 54 match trigger and it sounds like we have to order custom and have a gunsmith fit it. Since we have to go custom there are a large range of options. What success in configurations have other had? If we have to order custom might as well maximize the benefit. I would assume different contouring might impact barrel tuning, and what sort or how many turns n the rifling for precision? This would be a 3P and prone barrel. I guess to that end, from everything I've read people like lilja but any negative experiences is like to hear as well.
Thanks
Lilja barrel recommendations
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Out of curiosity, what triggered the replacement on the 1907? I ask because I was strongly considering rebarreling mine, but found that my problems (generally mediocre ammo test results) were solved by replacing the firing pin springs and optimizing my trigger timing.
As for what to order, you should find a gunsmith and talk to them first. They should be able to tell you what they prefer to work with, and depending on the gunsmith they may have a barrel or two already in hand that would fit your needs. In researching whether to have it done, and by whom, everyone I talked with who HAD rebarreled a round action Anschutz strongly recommended finding someone with experience working with smallbore rifles, and Anschutz actions specifically. Somewhere at home I have my list with various people's recommendations, and I will post when/if I find it tonight.
As for what to order, you should find a gunsmith and talk to them first. They should be able to tell you what they prefer to work with, and depending on the gunsmith they may have a barrel or two already in hand that would fit your needs. In researching whether to have it done, and by whom, everyone I talked with who HAD rebarreled a round action Anschutz strongly recommended finding someone with experience working with smallbore rifles, and Anschutz actions specifically. Somewhere at home I have my list with various people's recommendations, and I will post when/if I find it tonight.
I have been asking these questions as I'm in a similar position and what I have been recommended is the 1 in 16" twist, 4 groove, tight choke, 0.9" parallel contour Lilja.
The downside is that there is no bulge at the muzzle for my tube...
The only negative thing I've heard (and this is anecdotal and hearsay and should be taken with a liberal fistful of salt) is that the performance of the Lilja's may tail off sooner than some others. I'm sure there are people whose experience is quite the opposite though.
K.
The downside is that there is no bulge at the muzzle for my tube...
The only negative thing I've heard (and this is anecdotal and hearsay and should be taken with a liberal fistful of salt) is that the performance of the Lilja's may tail off sooner than some others. I'm sure there are people whose experience is quite the opposite though.
K.
Mark Penrod and Gene Davis are two rimfire gunsmiths I have worked with. You should be able to Google either one and find contact info.
As a previous poster said, I would recommend contacting a gunsmith first and discussing what you want. Long barrel, short, heavy, light??? For a kid or grownup? Plan to use a tuner or bloop tube? Most smiths can cut grooves in the barrel for sights so you can use with or without a bloop tube if you want.
Benchmark barrels seem to be pretty popular with the benchrest crowd right now, as well as the Shilen ratchet groove. Lilja is a popular barrel. I have heard some of the negative things floating around about them as well, but like the previous poster said, I take that with a lot of salt! There are a number of other barrels out there, Hart, and Krieger to name a couple more. Select your gunsmith first, he can then direct you to a barrel and contour. We have had good results with the reverse taper barrel by Benchmark, called a Gene Davis contour. It is a good barrel for a kid or woman, it is fairly lightweight.
Typically you will want to go with a 16 or 16.5 twist, again your gunsmith can direct you there. Get a competent gunsmith and trust him, don't worry too much about which brand of barrel. The skill of the smith who selects and fits the barrel is more important than which brand of barrel in my opinion. After all that.... you still have to do lot testing of ammo. Even the very best of guns / barrels will shoot different lots of ammo, very differently. I have tested barrels that shot several lots of ammo well, and tested others that shot only one lot well, but shot that specific one VERY well.
All that said, unless you are trying to change the weight or balance of the gun, maybe you should test the barrel first if you have done that already. The factory barrel might just need the right lot of ammo....
As a previous poster said, I would recommend contacting a gunsmith first and discussing what you want. Long barrel, short, heavy, light??? For a kid or grownup? Plan to use a tuner or bloop tube? Most smiths can cut grooves in the barrel for sights so you can use with or without a bloop tube if you want.
Benchmark barrels seem to be pretty popular with the benchrest crowd right now, as well as the Shilen ratchet groove. Lilja is a popular barrel. I have heard some of the negative things floating around about them as well, but like the previous poster said, I take that with a lot of salt! There are a number of other barrels out there, Hart, and Krieger to name a couple more. Select your gunsmith first, he can then direct you to a barrel and contour. We have had good results with the reverse taper barrel by Benchmark, called a Gene Davis contour. It is a good barrel for a kid or woman, it is fairly lightweight.
Typically you will want to go with a 16 or 16.5 twist, again your gunsmith can direct you there. Get a competent gunsmith and trust him, don't worry too much about which brand of barrel. The skill of the smith who selects and fits the barrel is more important than which brand of barrel in my opinion. After all that.... you still have to do lot testing of ammo. Even the very best of guns / barrels will shoot different lots of ammo, very differently. I have tested barrels that shot several lots of ammo well, and tested others that shot only one lot well, but shot that specific one VERY well.
All that said, unless you are trying to change the weight or balance of the gun, maybe you should test the barrel first if you have done that already. The factory barrel might just need the right lot of ammo....
Thanks - sorry crazy week or two so this is a bit late! I appreciate the comments, I oversimplified it and I should have known better! Most of you have seen Wills gun, but he is shooting what started out as a 1907, but his coach changed out his barrel for a shortened ss (we no longer have the 1907 barrel), and the stock was moved to a 1912 instead of the 1907. The effective length with Sight extension tube is that of the original 1907 length but the whole gun dropped several pounds.
Since we switched out his barrel a few years ago, he has grown quite a bit like young teenage boys do. So now the concern has started to be if the barrel has proper weight to help minimize the recoil (hes shooting in prone around 585/600 or 609.0 decimal) and if the gun (barrel) length is too short for him. We can add weights but I thought I'd start looking at different barrels. Talking to the guys at Lilja they seemed knowledgeable, but I just don't have a whole lot of knowledge on their barrels.
Thanks!
Since we switched out his barrel a few years ago, he has grown quite a bit like young teenage boys do. So now the concern has started to be if the barrel has proper weight to help minimize the recoil (hes shooting in prone around 585/600 or 609.0 decimal) and if the gun (barrel) length is too short for him. We can add weights but I thought I'd start looking at different barrels. Talking to the guys at Lilja they seemed knowledgeable, but I just don't have a whole lot of knowledge on their barrels.
Thanks!
That was plan B, mostly because I wasnt sure what impact the weights may or may not have. The barrel is providing pretty consistent 16.5 mm spreads in 10 shot groups with the lot testing we did. So the area I know nothing about is barrel dynamics, so please excuse me in advance for this question: Can adding significant weight to the barrel alter the function (harmonics) of the barrel to change the overall accuracy? Where would be the best placement for the weight?
Going in a new direction, but thanks for the input.
Going in a new direction, but thanks for the input.
CO
With the barrel shooting 16.5 edge to edge, how many shots are in that group? If only 5 shots it might be time to replace the barrel anyhow.
Now it is possible that with some more ammo selection, perhaps some working with the torque on the bedding screws and maybe even some glass bedding the existing barrel will tighten up some.
You ask where to put the weight, unfortunately that is different for every barrel. There are a few tuner tube products out there that let you move the weight to find the sweet spot. I personally own/use the Upta-Tuner, a tuner tube from Eric Uptagrafft.
http://shop.uptagrafftllc.com/Sight-Ext ... bes_c3.htm
These tubes add about a pound to the front of the rifle.
To get most out of a tuner you really do need to have your ammo selected, bedding torque sorted out, etc. (Remember, if you have a bad barrel or a bad barrel/ammo combination no tuner tube in the world is going to fix it.) Then you install the tuner and start to sort that out as well. It is interesting but changes that turn out to be as small as 1/16 of an inch on Eric's tubes can be seen in the tightness of the group.
Good Luck
'Dude
With the barrel shooting 16.5 edge to edge, how many shots are in that group? If only 5 shots it might be time to replace the barrel anyhow.
Now it is possible that with some more ammo selection, perhaps some working with the torque on the bedding screws and maybe even some glass bedding the existing barrel will tighten up some.
You ask where to put the weight, unfortunately that is different for every barrel. There are a few tuner tube products out there that let you move the weight to find the sweet spot. I personally own/use the Upta-Tuner, a tuner tube from Eric Uptagrafft.
http://shop.uptagrafftllc.com/Sight-Ext ... bes_c3.htm
These tubes add about a pound to the front of the rifle.
To get most out of a tuner you really do need to have your ammo selected, bedding torque sorted out, etc. (Remember, if you have a bad barrel or a bad barrel/ammo combination no tuner tube in the world is going to fix it.) Then you install the tuner and start to sort that out as well. It is interesting but changes that turn out to be as small as 1/16 of an inch on Eric's tubes can be seen in the tightness of the group.
Good Luck
'Dude
Yes, adding weight can affect barrel harmonics. There are a variety of barrel tuners on the market that will do just this; the Uptatuner, and the BeeSting tuner are two. These and almost all others add weight, somewhere around 200g in addition to the extension tube, just in front of the muzzle.COBelties wrote:Can adding significant weight to the barrel alter the function (harmonics) of the barrel to change the overall accuracy? Where would be the best placement for the weight?
Adding weight affects accuracy by altering the barrel harmonics so bullets leave the muzzle at the optimal point in the vibration waves created by firing. In practise this means when the muzzle is vibrating least, and pointing at the right upward angle to compensate for velocity based variation in trajectory.
The technical explation is much more complex invloving words like node, but it's been twenty years since I last looked at maths or physics, and I wasn't all that good back then.
Thanks for all the great information, lots to think about!
The 16.5 was the 40 shot group spread, the 10 shot average was 14.4mm (with the lowest being 11.4). So I feel comfortable with the ammunition quality and barrel pairing I think, or at least it seems to be in the competitive range? We use an upta sight extension tube currently, great product but I seem to recall seeing an article from Eric about a tuner doesn't really show much difference till you start in at 592+? Maybe he'll chime in on some of his thoughts on this one.
I did like the barrel weights, and maybe we can convert his current extension tube to a longer tuner for the weight and sight distance, paired with some barrel weights?
Gregory
The 16.5 was the 40 shot group spread, the 10 shot average was 14.4mm (with the lowest being 11.4). So I feel comfortable with the ammunition quality and barrel pairing I think, or at least it seems to be in the competitive range? We use an upta sight extension tube currently, great product but I seem to recall seeing an article from Eric about a tuner doesn't really show much difference till you start in at 592+? Maybe he'll chime in on some of his thoughts on this one.
I did like the barrel weights, and maybe we can convert his current extension tube to a longer tuner for the weight and sight distance, paired with some barrel weights?
Gregory