1911 grouping

[ghillieman]

I have been having issues for a while with my hardball gun not shooting well at 50 yards.
I have tried several different loads.
Current round count is almost 4000.

Last weekend I clamped it down in a ransom rest and fired 50 shots.
It made two 6' groups in a figure 8 pattern with a spattering of high and low shots vertically stringing the 5 ring.
That grouping falls right in line with the groups I usually get with that gun at 50 yards.
I've often said if I don't shoot that gun perfectly at 50 yards I might miss the target!
This was shot with some of the better performing 230's for that gun.

I have tightened up the front and rear of the rails and installed a tighter fitting bushing, but still get groups like this.
I have come to the conclusion that the gun needs to be rebuilt with a match grade barrel installed.

So my questions for you all is:

1: How would you explain the reason for that grouping?

2: What parts would you put in hard ball gun?

[Misny]

Have you tried reloads using the Sierra match bullets? People swear by them.

[GOVTMODEL]

IIRC, vertical stringing is a sign of an improperly fitted bushing. Not necessarily loose, but not fitted to the barrel.

I prefer Kart barrels.

[oldcaster]

Make sure it isn't the Ransom Rest mounting and or use. If that isn't done just right you can get bad groups regardless of the loads especially with a 1911.

[Isabel1130]

I suspect the problem, if there is only one problem, is barrel lockup. We tested a gun a few years ago that would shoot good groups with the exception of the first shot out of the magazine.

If the spread is radom, not the first or last round, I would also suspect ransom rest errors, or simply a bad barrel.

A good bullseye gunsmith will probably be able to figure it out a lot more quickly than I could.


Sandbag it first though, and find someone with excellent trigger control to test it to compare those groups against the ransom rest.

[Kirmdog]

Have you tried the spring test between barrel lock-up and bushing fit?

With the slide removed from the gun install the barrel and barrel bushing. With your thumb push the barrel to full upper lug lock-up and see if there is any spring to the barrel. If there is ANY springiness then the barrel bushing isn't fit properly to the barrel. If you have Jerry Kuhnhausen's book on the Colt 45 Automatic this is explained on page 125. I had this happen when I built my first 1911 and it did cause vertical stringing for me.

YMMV

Kirmdog

[ghillieman]

Isabell- I already sandbagged it and shot the same type of groups, that's what made me want to use the ransom rest.

Kirmdog- Just did the spring test and everything seemed to lock up well on the axis that the barrel tilts. However, there is a gap from the hood to the breech face and I can wiggle the barrel back and forth. The barrel will also wiggle on the bore axis, side to side.

What's everyone's opinion on the quality of factory Colt barrels? I can weld up the lugs, hood, and feet and refit the barrel, but if the bore is sub par would I be better off fitting a new match barrel?

[Rover]

Jackie Best told me the Colt barrels were excellent, and he didn't know why people bought the aftermarket barrels. The wad gun he built for me would do under two inches.

[fc60]

Greetings,

I had a similar issue with my Ball Gun.

Installing a heavier recoil spring changed the group from a vertical string to a nice round group at 50 yards.

I was using Federal Match Ball ammo FC01, which was quite stiff, velocity-wise. The ammo shot ten-X groups at 50 yards with the barrel mounted in a fixed barrel rest.

I cannot recall exactly what weight spring I used. The test was to use the heaviest spring that would allow the pistol to fire and lock the slide back. If the pistol fired, ejected the case but did not lock back, install the next weakest spring.

The theory was that the barrel was starting to unlock too soon and inconsistently.

Cheers,

Dave

[Jon Eulette]

Dave made an excellent point. Last year I was messing around with some powder puff loads and was getting super light loads to shoot excellent short line. My long line was crap. I forgot to put the stiffer spring back into the pistol for the 50 yard load. My groups were huge. Put the heavier spring back in and groups shrunk back to their excellent small size. This is on a pistol with excellent lockup/barrel fit. It was coming out of battery too soon.

As far as welded up Colt barrels go; they do shoot excellent when properly fit. I used to get sub 2" groups with Federal match out of mine. Broke 2650 with welded up barrels before. But from a gunsmithing point of view, it takes more time and effort to weld and fit older Colt barrels. Also you can't fit upper lugs and you have to use a really long link when fit tight up into the slide. Accuracy tuners help keep the barrel lower for shorter barrel links, but you lose upper lug lockup engagement into the slide. So you have to decide what trade off you're willing to live with.

Also in my experience a lot of older pistols built with the accuracy tuners don't group worth beans without HEAVY recoil springs.

Jon

[GunRunner]

Shot my best slow fire with a Jackie best colt 70 with factory barrel.

[ghillieman]

Dave- I currently have a Wolff 20# spring in my hardball gun. It shot the same groups with the factory 16# spring too. I tried 230's from 650fps to 830fps, thinking the faster velocity would give the bullet greater stability at 50, but that didn't work either.

So if everyone says the Colt NM barrels are good, I will weld this one up and refit it, maybe I can get it to work.

Kirmdog mentioned Jerry Kuhnhausens book, are there any other books that show detailed accurizing of a 1911?

Dave- I will order a spring kit and do what you said.

[JimPGov]

I FOUND A 20LB RECOIL SPRING IN MY BALL GUN DID MAKE A DIFFERENCE I ACCURACY. JP

[Jon Eulette]

If you weld up the barrel and refit it, be forewarned that you will need a LONG link to fit it correctly. Al Marvel isn't making #21 long links anymore and no one else is making one yet. EGW is supposed to in the future. The link is crucial to proper functioning and grouping. Older barrels, typically Colt, whether NM or factory didn't have extra material in the upper lugs to keep the barrel from going up HIGH into the slide when fitting and this is why the longer link is required. Since upper lugs really can't be touched, hood fit is crucial (sides) to prevent the barrel twisting during recoil. This is why accuracy tuner was made, it keeps barrel lower and gives MARGINAL lockup (nit much upper lug engagement). Some old time smiths used to silver solder a shim in the upper barrel lug to keep barrel from going high into slide lugs. Giles pistols had a welded nub on the slide to keep barrel from going too high.

Regardless, the barrels will shoot well (not as good as a KART).

Jon

[ghillieman]

Since the last posts I have tightened the slide to frame fit. I took off 10 thousands of an inch in vertical play, which required me to file off the top of the receiver to get the slide back on. Lapped the fit between the two. The pistol is much tighter now and it removed some of the play at the breech end of the barrel. However there is still no contact between the feet and the slide release.

I just came back from the range and the majority of shots were on call at 50 yards. This is a huge improvement over previous groupings. I will use this for awhile and see where my NMC scores end up at. If I feel that the pistol is still not performing well I will fit a Kart barrel.

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments.

[GunRunner]

Jackie Best told me the Colt barrels were excellent, and he didn't know why people bought the aftermarket barrels. The wad gun he built for me would do under two inches.

Not all colt barrels are good. J.Best guns that had colt barrels were built with the Colt national match barrels . I had one of his colt barreled guns and it was as accurate as any kart barreled gun.

[udiablo]

When building my son's pistol some time back, I used the Colt barrel and fit an NM bushing.

Got a link from Brownells after all the other slide/barrel work.

It was not too expensive and a lot easier than making it.

Think they stock Wilson links in .268, .273, .283, and .288 for about $6 each, or get a set of 5 for about $27.

Do you need a link longer than .288" (nominal stock link is about .278")?

[ScottEdvin]

I like bt-4 as it is much easier to upgrade. The bt-4 will come with a movable or removable virticle grip, this allows you to move it till its comfortable. In bt-4 you can just simply remove the Trigger Grip, then split this gun in half. This makes it easier to take it apart, easier to mod, and easier to not lose parts.

[hill987]

Both guns I own where built by jackie, the 45 wad gun has kart nm barrel and bushing and groups under 2.5 at 50 the 38 barrel has no markings but as always jackie signed and serialed to the frame and fit is great.. A bad crown can cause problems but sounds like you just got a bad barrel. It's not the first one out there,. rebarrel and bushing and set the time right for hard ball you should be good to go

[ghillieman]

Has anyone ever heard of a barrel that would shoot SWC's but not 230 LRN or FMJ? Ive shot this gun into the 270's with 200gr SWC at 830 fps, but I have never been able to get it to do well at 50 with hardball ammo, no matter what velocity. 25 timed and rapid are great, just not 50.

I have been able to tighten the gun and get the 50 yard groups tightened up... some.....

Ive got a few more loads to try before I give up on the barrel and get a Kart kit. I just cant figure out why it will shoot SWC's and not hardball ammo.