Best Rear Sight

[joydeepk]

Which is the best Rear Sight for ISSF 50 M Rifle in your oppinion?

particular attention should be given to i) Accuracy ii)Wind Flag viewing iii)Easy positioning of Click Knobs for Prone.
An Image of the choiced Sight will be helpful.
cheers

[Guest]

I've been wondering about the same thing. Since I'm lefthanded, I want the sidecorrection knob on the left side for easy access in prone and kneeling. I've basically narrowed my selection down to the Hämmerli 461 diopter or the MEC Free Sight, but I can't really decide.

The MEC looks more modern and perhaps more cool, but I think the most important thing is that one click correction on the sight is always the same and I've a feeling that the Hämmerli maybe is best in that field.

Anyone have any ideas about which is best (and other sight suitable for left-handed shooters to look for?)

[metermatch]

A very popular sight in the 1980's and 1990's for prone shooting was a Gates sight. Made by Sam Gates in his garage, I believe, and who I think passed away a few years back. They are beefy but well made, a bit heavy, but who cares. But don't use them for high power, as they are too heavy to withstand the recoil. On a smallbore rifle, they will last a lifetime +.

They install like a highpower sight on the side of the receiver. For Anschutz, there is an adapter that is about $40

I met Sam Gates at Camp Perry in 1986 when he personally handed me one of his sights that I had ordered from him. His backorder time was usually about 6 months at the time. Real nice guy.

The thing I like about the Gates sight (and I suspect many newer sight designs copy this idea) is that the threads are spring loaded always on one side, taking up all thread slack. So whenever you make a click, the sight moves. If you change direction, the sight still moves the correct amount. No non-movement while the threads take up their slack.

I have tested my Gates sight, and several Anschutz and Redfield Olympic and Palma sights many times over the years, and have always been amazed at how accurate the Gates sight is. Using a Starret dial indicator, and turning the knobs l to r or up to down, the Gates sight repeats down to a few ten-thousandths of an inch every time. (yes .0001). I bought a Redfield Palma new years ago, and it was a joke. Got rid of it. The Olympic was not much better. Basically, I was NOT impressed by the Redfield sights.

My personal opinion is that any sight that needs to be carefully adjusted to take up slack in the threads and in the dovetails is not for me. And yes, I am also referring to the highly regarded Anschutz sights. Yes, I have had a few, and they are very good, but I think the Gates is better. And yes, I have seen dead clicks in brand new Anschutz sights.

What does this mean to you?? Well, the next time you are shooting prone in a changing wind at Camp Perry, and you are running out of time, and you just shot one near the line, and need to move 4 clicks in the opposite direction you just clicked, and you have no time to go back to the sighter, and you shoot and the shot goes in the same place or further out, and you swear you clicked enough to be back inside, well, then you will understand the value of not having a sight that has "dead" clicks in it...

Some people will tell you that you can solve this problem by, for example, you want to go 3 clicks left - click 5 left and right 2. This supposedly takes up the slack in the sight.

OK, whatever. My solution is to just go buy a Gates sight.

You can use the Gates sight left handed, but would probably be a bit more awkward than the Anschutz.

One just sold on eBay today for $275. Guys said a little worn. Personally, I am looking for another one in really mint condition as a backup, and am willing to pay $350.

Jeff

[Dickn52]

Looking for some info. I just recieved my Sam Gates, and I have a question. You guys seem to know more about them than most. Ok, the sight is fantastic. Smooth operation, no binding, no dirt. Clean in other words. However the name is not Sam Gates, but "Glideline Corp. of Waynesboro, PA" There are numbers on three locations. 060. Is that the serial number by any chance. Can you tell me anything at all about this sight or where I could find any material on it. I am going to mount this on my 52D and remove the Redfield International.

[dlinden]

delete

[metermatch]

I have never heard of the glideline corp, but Sam was from Waynesboro, PA, so Im suspect it was likely connected to him.

I suspect the 060 was the serial number.

My sight says Sam Gates, I think #532, also says 1/6 on it as I wanted 1/6 minute clicks as that was 3 clicks per ring on the international target at the time. I received it personally from Sam in 1986 or 1987 to give you a time line.

Thanks,

Jeff

[bluetentacle]

Which is the best Rear Sight for ISSF 50 M Rifle in your oppinion?

particular attention should be given to i) Accuracy ii)Wind Flag viewing iii)Easy positioning of Click Knobs for Prone.

I think the original poster really hit it on the head with his list of priorities. Mechanical accuracy is important, but IMO it's overemphasized at the expense of everything else in the American shooting community. This is mostly because American shooters, particularly those in domestic shooting disciplines, tend to click for wind. If you shade for wind, as most international shooters do, having the nth degree of mechanical consistency isn't as important. Other factors deserve consideration as well.

I use a MEC Freesight on my SB rifle and a Centra Spy on my 300m rifle. These are the slimmest rear sights on the market. Here are my thoughts:

I love the slimness. They allow you to see more flags in position.

Both track extremely well. I have tested them on micrometers and they both move 0.02mm per click with no major inconsistency, dead clicks, or problem with backlash.

Centra spy is slimmer than the Freesight, due to its extra-small, translucent rear iris. However, this iris has no built-in filter wheel. To change the filter, you need to fiddle with individual filters which screw into the front of the sight. You could use Freesight's slim-profile rear sight--which is bulkier but features a filter wheel--with Spy, but that negates Spy's slimness advantage, because from the shooter's perspective, the diameter of the Freesight iris takes up more space in the field of view than the body of the rear sight.

Freesight has more conveniently positioned knobs. The windage knobs are longer and easier to turn. The elevation wheel is at the bottom of the sight rather than on top, making it easier to reach with the rifle in the shoulder. The knobs on either sight are easier to reach than those of Anschutz sights.

Since I often change the filter during a match to respond to lighting conditions, my recommendation for smallbore goes to the MEC Freesight.

[metermatch]

I'm not entirely sure what a "slim" sight is going to do for you. Vision in sighting eye is normally intentionally blocked off. I sight with right eye, view flags with left eye. I thought most people did it this way.

I can't say I recall many people say they shaded on the ISU target. Shading is a guess. The target is hard enough to see accurately with iron sights, let alone being able to shade enough with accuracy.

Best procedure is to bracket your conditions, and patiently wait for your condition to return. If things get crazy, a good repeatable sight can be used with as much or more accuracy than shading. Shading is a guess, clicking is a known amount.

Shading is a last ditch effort when you are about to run out of time, so it is better to shade than to have saved rounds.

Jeff

[bluetentacle]

I'm not entirely sure what a "slim" sight is going to do for you. Vision in sighting eye is normally intentionally blocked off. I sight with right eye, view flags with left eye. I thought most people did it this way.

I can't say I recall many people say they shaded on the ISU target. Shading is a guess. The target is hard enough to see accurately with iron sights, let alone being able to shade enough with accuracy.

Best procedure is to bracket your conditions, and patiently wait for your condition to return. If things get crazy, a good repeatable sight can be used with as much or more accuracy than shading. Shading is a guess, clicking is a known amount.

Shading is a last ditch effort when you are about to run out of time, so it is better to shade than to have saved rounds.

Jeff

Waiting is certainly the preferred technique, but shading is an absolutely essential skill for the top level ISSF shooter these days. The televised ISSF finals give shooters just 30 seconds for each shot. When you watch the Youtube telecast of those matches, you'll find nobody touching their sight during those 30 seconds because there's just no time. You sooner or later have to shade.

Some good shooters just don't shoot quickly enough to avoid having to shade, when conditions are changing. Especially now that we only have 50 minutes to complete the 60-shot course.

This isn't a new trend either. David Kimes told me personally that he trained long and hard in shading and that helped him to get onto the Olympic team for 1980 (eventually boycotted by the West). Lanny Basham certainly did shade. Don Brook of Australia, who was a top shooter in the 60's-80's, has written extensively on shading techniques on targetshooteronline.com.

In practice, shading can be just as accurate as clicking. You just need to *train* to recognize the correct sight picture for a given placement. Like everything else, the more you practice shading, the better you are at it. The real "guesswork" in wind combat is always the reading of conditions, not what you do to compensate for them.

There's no quicker way to respond to wind changes than shading. Once you get the hang of it, you'll rarely be touching the knobs.

Most shooters block their peripheral vision to some extent, but when it comes to wind reading, the more you can see while you are in position, the less likely you are to be caught by a wind change. IMO someone who has a long plastic blinder attached to his rear iris is at a disadvantage to someone who has a clear view of the field.

[dontshootcritters]

Hi there
I have the Hammerli and Im very happy with it.It does have adjustments on both sides for left/right handed shooters.Great quality but like everything in this world it comes down to what you want to pay.Having said that quality never goes out of fashion and isn't generally expensive in the long run. Given the competitive environment today I don't think there will be a bad sight if you are comparing similar dollar values.
All the best.
I would look at Anschutz and Warner also.

[RobinC]

My vote goes to the Centra Spy, small, beautifully made, and very precise, and also has a built in lenshood and will accomadate a duplex.

The filter issue that an earlier poster made is irrelavent, you can use any iris on the Spy as you can on most sights, he was clearly using the Centra crystal with no filter, I use the Centra startline filter on mine which is as small as the crystal and also has filters as well as being much cheaper, or you could use the Centra Tiny which is small and also has filters.

The Mec free is also an excellent sight and I would also recomend it.

Of the main stream rifle manufacturers sights, both Walther and Anschutz are well made and precise.

If you want a good budget sight, the Hammerli 590 is an excelent sight, small, well made, and precise, and will take a lens hood and duplex. I recently bought one as I wanted a spare sight for a different distance to save having to adjust the duplex. I am very impressed with its quality, and its a 1/3 of the price of the top line sights. I've noticed it's used by many 3P shooters who want a different sight for each position.
Good luck
Robin

[bluetentacle]

The filter issue that an earlier poster made is irrelavent, you can use any iris on the Spy as you can on most sights, he was clearly using the Centra crystal with no filter, I use the Centra startline filter on mine which is as small as the crystal and also has filters as well as being much cheaper, or you could use the Centra Tiny which is small and also has filters.

Read my post again. I did say that you can use Freesight's iris on the Spy--by which I mean the Tiny iris. But the Tiny is quite a bit larger the Centra Crystal and it's completely black as opposed to partially transparent. Centra Startline is similar to Tiny in size. See pictures:


http://1drv.ms/1fXCldG

http://1drv.ms/1eAcaEw

Pictures are three irises attached to sights, from left to right:

• *Centra Spy with Crystal Iris
  *MEC Freesight with Tiny Iris that accepts a screw-in mirror
  *Centra 10-50 with an older Tiny iris that doesn't accept a mirror.

Crystal's small size and partial traslucency makes a huge difference in the field of vision. It is sized perfectly for use with the Spy. On the other hand, if you use the Centra Tiny iris on a Centra Spy rear sight, you'll see no more than you can with MEC Freesight, because from the shooter's perspective, the rear iris is larger than the sight body!

[WesternGrizzly]

I'm not entirely sure what a "slim" sight is going to do for you. Vision in sighting eye is normally intentionally blocked off. I sight with right eye, view flags with left eye. I thought most people did it this way.

I can't say I recall many people say they shaded on the ISU target. Shading is a guess. The target is hard enough to see accurately with iron sights, let alone being able to shade enough with accuracy.

Best procedure is to bracket your conditions, and patiently wait for your condition to return. If things get crazy, a good repeatable sight can be used with as much or more accuracy than shading. Shading is a guess, clicking is a known amount.

Shading is a last ditch effort when you are about to run out of time, so it is better to shade than to have saved rounds.

Jeff

I respectfully disagree with the above. I am currently using a Anschutz 20 click rear sight and think it is too bulky. Seeing the wind flags is one of the best things about having a really small rear sight, and the more I shoot with my Anschutz, the more I want a smaller sight.At ranges like Benning, it doesn't matter quite as much because of the difficulty in seeing the flags in adjacent lanes, but at any range that is open, I think it is vital.

Shading is extremely common. I don't know many top international shooters that can't shade. I know of many that shade on almost every shot. The reason being is that is very fast and you don't ever lose track of sight clicks. At first it is a bit tricky to get a handle of, but with some work it is extremely precise.
I do agree that waiting and shooting in one condition is the best, but isn't always doable.

And clicking is shading, but a bit more "precise" as you said. If you click, it changes the sight alignment, so in order to compensate, you move the point of aim in very small amounts in order to correct for it. So in effect, you are pointing the barrel in a different area than you were before.
Matt

[gwsb]

Life doesn't get any better.

A Sam Gates sight on a 52 D. If you have a Kenyon Trigger on it you really have a great rifle.

Originally Sam made sights and used the Guideline Corp. name. The number on the parts is the order it was made in. You have the 60th sight he made. I have 309 and 6xx . The 6xx sight is close to the last he made. The number should be stamped on each of the 3 main pieces.

The sight is 1/4 minute clicks. That was what conventional prone shooters mostly used until they began using Anschutz sights which were 1/6. I think my #309 is one of the first Sam made with 1/6 min. and he stamped that on the parts.

The recommended maintanence for them according to Sam was to take it apart about once a year wipe the parts free of dust and dirt and lube it with a small amount of light grease.

I like the 52 action because it has a short bolt throw and is easy to operate in prone.

[Dickn52]

Thank you. I do not have a Kenyon trigger, but I do have a Canjar LP at 4 oz's right now. I may take that lower later in the year when I get better on the rest. I rebuilt a 52D from CMP. Finding parts took about a year or more. Bolt, trigger (then swapped with the Canjar) bolt guide. Stock from Evans Compton in NC, Trigger guard, sights and on and on. Had the action, bolt handle and barrel cerakoted black. Nice with no glare at all. My last NRA target was a 99 9x in rain at 50yds instead of 50ft. But this Gates sight looks nice and I plan to switch out the Redfield International that is mounted now. I'll wring this out on Wednesday next. Again thanks for the info.

[Hap Rocketto]

Pertinent extracts from “The Smallbore Savvy of Sam Gates” Shooting Sports USA, Volume 7, Number 7 July 1994.

Each sight was hand built and hand fit so that parts are not truly interchangeable.

Gates Sights built: 700 total; 632 right hand and 68 left hand. Left hand sight serial numbers start at one and are followed by the letter “L”. Right handed sights have nothing noted after the serial number.

Adjustments: commonly manufactured with 1/4 or 1/6 minute clicks but about 15 were fabricated with 1/8 minute clicks. Four 1/8th went to Art Cook. Total windage adjustment is 15 minutes either side of mechanical zero and 33 minutes elevation bottom to top.

Makings: Earliest models-“Guideline Corp. Waynesboro, Pa” with 5/8th inch adjustments knobs which were later increased to ¾ inch. Marking changes to “Sam Gates Waynesboro, Pa” and finally “Sam Gates”

Lubrication: Gates recommended Dow Corning M55 Silica Grease®

Sight tube threading: Threads in sight tube were first cut at 3/8-24 simply to prevent reflected light. After sight number 89 the thread size was 3/8-32 to accommodate after market shades and polarizing filters.

Aperture: Rear aperture thread cut to accommodate major European sights and a reducer bushing was available to use a Merit master Disc®

[Dickn52]

Thank you. Perfect.

[crankythunder]

Anybody hae any experience with the phoenix or the pnc sights?

Regards,
Cranky

[Tim S]

It may (or may not) be relevant that the original poster, Joydeep Karmakar, eventually chose MEC Free and Centra Spy sights. He placed 4th at the London Olympics.

[dlinden]

Thanks Tim.
Any chance you happen to know how he did so well without the use of a Gates sight?

Dennis L