Who makes the modern pentathlon laser pistol/ target?

[seamaster]

http://pentathlon.hu/aktualis/2013/low% ... -final.pdf

Does anyone know which company is making the pentathlon laser pistol/ target? Time delay to emulate time required for pellet to leave the barrel to retain marksmanship, target hit location software. Look like a very good home training system. And low cost? That would be a nice training system.

Any information on this? Is SCATT involved in this? The final version used by London Olympic was a Russian system?

[HORSEMOVER]

This is all that I have seen

http://www.pentathlon.org/development/l ... -providers

[seamaster]

Who sell those things? Any seller in US carries those things?

[HORSEMOVER]

Maybe try emailing them here

http://www.pentathlon.org/contact-us

[RobStubbs]

The ones I've seen are anything but low cost ! Essentially a converted Steyr LP10 so add on 50% on top of the cost of the LP10 and your about right. I also think they'd make a poor training tool - you'd be better off using your normal pistol and dry firing with it.

Rob.

[conradin]

I lost all respect to this sport when they stopped using real pistol. What's next? Wii for the fencing part?

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

The big problem is, that as a Pentathlon-shooter you have to believe (and sign it before start...) that the results are okay. I know the original inventor of the system based on the Steyr, but the federation decided shortly before London somehow to include several other (cheaper) manufacturers, and everything suffers from some incompatibilities. Just talk to some shooters...

Light travels with light speed, and for the target system it's difficult to decide, where the beam really hits first. A slight movement, and you don't have a tiny spot in the ten but a line of "hits" from the eight-ring on. The system has to find the very first "impact", which is very difficult - if you set the reaction time too short, the system can't calculate the hit. If it's too long, it can't calculate it either. Guess if that's still a sport or a fairground shooting gallery...

It would be okay, if they used a hit-or-miss-system with a much smaller center. But they wanted seperate rings like for ISSF, and that is more luck than precision.

[HORSEMOVER]

The big problem is, that as a Pentathlon-shooter you have to believe (and sign it before start...) that the results are okay. I know the original inventor of the system based on the Steyr, but the federation decided shortly before London somehow to include several other (cheaper) manufacturers, and everything suffers from some incompatibilities. Just talk to some shooters...

Light travels with light speed, and for the target system it's difficult to decide, where the beam really hits first. A slight movement, and you don't have a tiny spot in the ten but a line of "hits" from the eight-ring on. The system has to find the very first "impact", which is very difficult - if you set the reaction time too short, the system can't calculate the hit. If it's too long, it can't calculate it either. Guess if that's still a sport or a fairground shooting gallery...

It would be okay, if they used a hit-or-miss-system with a much smaller center. But they wanted seperate rings like for ISSF, and that is more luck than precision.

That's interesting...I never really considered that before.

[David Levene]

It would be okay, if they used a hit-or-miss-system with a much smaller center. But they wanted seperate rings like for ISSF, and that is more luck than precision.

I thought that they just used a single "Hit" zone of 59.5mm diameter; the same as the black of a 10m Air Pistol target.

As there is no requirement for anything other than a "hit" indication (no "miss" is needed), isn't it simply a case of adjusting the pistol's light pulse length to be the same, or just over, the target's minimum sensing time.

If I'm right about the scoring method then it would make a lousy trainer for ISSF shooting.

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

Yes, in the end they used a hit-or-miss-solution. But the order from the UIPM was, that the system had to be capable of measuring tenth-rings, which was with the state-of-the-art technique not possible.

But even for hitting the 59,5 mm center you should have to hit precise and not 1 cm away and still "hitting"...

[Brian G]

It would be okay, if they used a hit-or-miss-system with a much smaller center. But they wanted seperate rings like for ISSF, and that is more luck than precision.

I thought that they just used a single "Hit" zone of 59.5mm diameter; the same as the black of a 10m Air Pistol target.

As there is no requirement for anything other than a "hit" indication (no "miss" is needed), isn't it simply a case of adjusting the pistol's light pulse length to be the same, or just over, the target's minimum sensing time.

If I'm right about the scoring method then it would make a lousy trainer for ISSF shooting.

You are right it is a hit zone of 59.5mm diameter.

I have a UIPM Judge's Licence but said that I would not use it after London2012 (I was already committed to the Olympics when the new rules came in) because of the 'farground' approach although I understand the reasons I do not agree with them.

As I understand it the process is as follows;

there is a delay after the trigger releases before the laser fires to simulate barrel time,

the laser pulse lasts 40ms, the length of the trace on the target allows the system to calculate the point of impact allowing for muzzle flip and flight time.

The earlier systems had radio links so that the target expected a shot so as to detect crossfires, but now there is an individual code in the laser which is paired to the target during warm up.

During trials of the system the athletes asked for scoring rings to be shown on the monitors during the warm up and sighting period.

The term 'warm up and sighting' is used because the athletes run and shot as they wish within the time allowed, before the run/shoot competition.

My guess is that the manufacturers are trying to expand into the precision market.

[HORSEMOVER]

I have a UIPM Judge's Licence but said that I would not use it after London2012 (I was already committed to the Olympics when the new rules came in) because of the 'farground' approach although I understand the reasons I do not agree with them.

I would be curious to hear your understanding of the reasons if you wouldn't mind sharing.

[Brian G]

I have a UIPM Judge's Licence but said that I would not use it after London2012 (I was already committed to the Olympics when the new rules came in) because of the 'farground' approach although I understand the reasons I do not agree with them.

I would be curious to hear your understanding of the reasons if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Modern Pentathlon is not supported by many countries in the Olympic movement, with the risk that it may be dropped, so to encourage more countries notably those that do not allow private ownership of airguns the UIPM changed over to laser pistols. I believe that airlines are also more amenable.

My objection to lasers stems from my background in pistol shooting, and anything that may give the authorities the idea that we do not need bullets or pellets in our sport is totally wrong IMHO. BTW I live in the UK where most handguns are banned, unless they are >60cm.

[HORSEMOVER]

I have a UIPM Judge's Licence but said that I would not use it after London2012 (I was already committed to the Olympics when the new rules came in) because of the 'farground' approach although I understand the reasons I do not agree with them.

I would be curious to hear your understanding of the reasons if you wouldn't mind sharing.

Modern Pentathlon is not supported by many countries in the Olympic movement, with the risk that it may be dropped, so to encourage more countries notably those that do not allow private ownership of airguns the UIPM changed over to laser pistols. I believe that airlines are also more amenable.

My objection to lasers stems from my background in pistol shooting, and anything that may give the authorities the idea that we do not need bullets or pellets in our sport is totally wrong IMHO. BTW I live in the UK where most handguns are banned, unless they are >60cm.

Thank you! I knew about the movement but didn't truly understand the reasoning. My daughter is involved in pony club and competes in Tetrathlon. Our region actually has had fencing in the past for those that chose to participate but has since turned into a demonstration. I agree with you on keeping our bullets 100%

[conradin]

Modern Pentathlon is not supported by many countries in the Olympic movement, with the risk that it may be dropped, so to encourage more countries notably those that do not allow private ownership of airguns the UIPM changed over to laser pistols. I believe that airlines are also more amenable.

My objection to lasers stems from my background in pistol shooting, and anything that may give the authorities the idea that we do not need bullets or pellets in our sport is totally wrong IMHO. BTW I live in the UK where most handguns are banned, unless they are >60cm.

Do officers use air pistols in a battle or delivering messages in the trenches?
:)
I guess the idea of the Pentathlon is so archaic that perhaps whoever can text messages to someone else fastest should win the competition. There will be no "obstacles". Unless there is a Monty Python bridge crossing puzzles then I will watch the sport.

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

My guess is that the manufacturers are trying to expand into the precision market.

That's sad, but true. Like in Biathlon there are some companies which believe in enlarging their market, now that "real" gun manufacturers don't have a lead anymore. So for example "Hora" is one of the major suppliers of electronic biathlon targets, and now they present their own laser-gun system without caring if they could damage (or kill) the "normal" shooting sport:
http://www.hora2000.de/en/home/

The same idea had Klaus Schormann, the president of UIPM, when they introduced the new laser "pistol". I was at the press conference then, and he explained/excused it with better chances to introduce Pentathlon in countries, where guns are completely forbidden, but laser guns aren't. And he was dreaming (which became reality) of having the olympic final in Londons Hyde Park with many paying visitors instead somewhere abroad at the military shooting range, where all other shooting events took place. And Schormann was fully aware that he would possible damage shooting sports, he told the journalists so.

So our aim for all future discussions, web comments etc should be to show, to explain, to convince people, that shooting is much more than projecting a laser beam on a electronic device. It's all about wind, rain, light, ballistics, powder, recoil etc. - you have to manage all that to win a competition. Just take a laserpointer and try to "hit" some points in your room as quick as possible - it's so easy! But having a gun and hitting these spots wouldn't be so easy...

[David Levene]

....somewhere abroad at the military shooting range, where all other shooting events took place.

I don't understand that comment. What "military shooting range"?

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

Wasn't "Royal Artillery Barracks in Woolwich" the shooting venue in 2012? Or is that a former military area? As far as I know it was chosen because of the higher security necessary (in someone's opinion) for those dangerous shooting events.

[David Levene]

The Royal Artillery Barracks were simply the backdrop for the shotgun layouts and became the name for the ranges; you've got to call them something.

The ranges were actually built on Woolwich Common, an area of grassland that is overlooked by the barracks.

Before the ranges were built it was an area used by people to walk their dogs and, a year after the Paralympics had finished, it was returned to that use.

Unfortunately there is now no sign of where the ranges were, they have been totally removed along with all of the pathways and roads. They were never going to be kept; the sport in this country is not big enough to have justified their retention.

[Ulrich Eichstädt]

Thanks for the explanation, I wasn't able to be there in 2012.

In fact also Klaus Schormann used the pretended "military" character as example to seperate his idea of "shooting" in the middle of the city, without any security/safety problems.