Pardini K50 & TOZ 35M

[mparker]

I read the article in the link below yesterday. It compares the Pardini K50 with the TOZ 35M. It's interesting, if dated, and the author(s) recommended the TOZ.

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/se ... istol.html

I don't shoot free pistol and likely never will but I'd like to have one and here is where my ignorance may come shining through.

Older free pistols of this type are not particularly easy to find but they're not rare either. Still, Hammerlis seem to be readily available as there were so many models.

My question is, what FP might be the best (performance) most cost effective choice for an intentionally casual user?

For reference, I have a Pardini SP, Benelli MP95e, and 4 Hammerlis (208, 215, 280, Trailside).

[Mike M.]

Toz-35. The Toz-35 has been a top-tier pistol for decades, with only the Morini beating it out in the last few years. It still holds the World Record - and is available at a very reasonable price.

That being said, you might get better performance from your hand with whatever semi-auto you shoot the best slow fire scores with.

[TB]

Toz-35. The Toz-35 has been a top-tier pistol for decades, with only the Morini beating it out in the last few years. It still holds the World Record - .

Not true that the toz-35 holds the world record. First of all Melentiev holds the world record and second of all he used a МЦ-55 (MU-55, MTs-55, MC-55) to set the record.

[rmca]

Two pistols still dominate the world of free pistol, the Morini 84 and the Toz35.

Although there are other brands, like pardini, hammerly, walter, matchguns etc. these rarely make an appearance at the finals of top competitions.

Of the two only the morini is still in production, but you can still find "like new" Toz35. The Toz will be the cheaper of the two 9 out of 10 times.

You will soon find that in free pistol the weak link is you. And WAY weaker than in any other form of pistol shooting (we all are, don't take it personally).

I would strongly advise you to get the Toz35. It's a simple but very well designed pistol, it forgives a little for a free pistol ;-) and is still capable of world class results.

Hope this helps

[kle]

My question is, what FP might be the best (performance) most cost effective choice for an intentionally casual user?

For reference, I have a Pardini SP, Benelli MP95e, and 4 Hammerlis (208, 215, 280, Trailside).

My two-cents:

You could use any of those guns in a freepistol event and probably do reasonably well, if you simply wanted to get your feet wet.

I only have experience with a TOZ-35 (not the M), and I've only used it in one match so far. It's pretty challenging to shoot it after living in the world of NRA Conventional Pistol and relatively huge 10 and X rings (i.e. the 10-ring in 50m freepistol is about the size of the X-ring on an NRA B-6/B-8 target) and red dot sights.

Like my IZH/MP-46M air pistol, it was pretty inexpensive compared to the more top-tier pistols out there, but I don't feel it will be the limiting factor for quite a while. That is: I feel the major steps up from a Bullseye or even Sport/Standard Pistol (the trigger, the wraparound grip, and the action) are probably more important to me right now as a beginner than the differences between the higher-level pistols.

[slofyr]

You can safely assume that any 50-meter pistol will be more accurate than you will ever be. So, whatever pistol was used by someone to shoot a high score is of no importance. It's not the pistol that makes heros, the game is about skill. Over the years I've shot the Pardini PGP75 and K22, Hammerli 150/160/FP60, Morini 84e, TOZ35 and 35M. They are all good. Buy a pistol that you hold well and feels right in your hand. As mentioned, the TOZ would be a good choice. Put a nice grip on it and go shooting.

[6string]

Given your stated purpose and obvious experience with various "standard" type semi-auto 22s, you would do well to get a few different free pistols in your hands to try the fit.
Since your collection is comprised of high quality guns, you may find the build quality of the TOZ a bit disappointing. Metal and wood work tend to be quite rough, even in relatively "new" condition. The used ones out there tend to be really beat up.
You didn't specify, but if you at all thinking in terms of collectibility, you'd probably be better off with something that has a better track record from an investment standpoint.
A high quality early Hammerli would be an obvious choice, and would be a good fit with your current collection. The early model 100 through the 103 are actually fairly uncommon as only a few thousand total were built. The serial number range started with 1001. The later 104 through to the 107 are much more common.
A Hammerli 150 or 160 would also be a good fit if you prefer something newer.

Best Regards,
Jim

[jr]

The early model 100 through the 103 are actually fairly uncommon as only a few thousand total were built. The serial number range started with 1001. The later 104 through to the 107 are much more common.

Thanks for that information, Jim (6string). I have an octagon barrel Hammerli Model 100 with an early serial number (low 1000s) and I didn't know that the numbers started with 1001. How did you find that out?

BTW, it still shoots really, really well. I recently did 10-shot group tests with 7 different kinds of ammo and found that:

(.7") Eley Edge
(.7") Eley Target
(.75") Wolf Match Target
(.75") CCI Quiet 40gr
(.8") Gemtech subsonic 42gr
(1.2") Eley Tenex
(1.4") Eley Sport

All the above were 10-shot groups at 50 feet with the pistol rested on sandbags. Indoor. About 50ºF (10ºC).
I was impressed by all the groups, because it's an over 60-year-old pistol, because I am by no means a great shot (I know the sandbags were doing most of the work, but I think I have an inconsistent and somewhat blurry sight picture that probably opened the groups somewhat).

It surprised me that this particular gun didn't like the most expensive ammo (the Tenex), but I was happy with that fact. Maybe this was even some subconscious sandbagging to save money. The pistol did pretty well with the less-expensive ammo, and I'm also glad that it liked the Eley Edge ('cause I dig the black cases!).

Another interesting thing to me - although I'll bet somebody has a good hypothesis - is that whereas all the different ammo I tested more-or-less printed on the same spot on the target (so you really could interchange ammo in a match without any real loss in point of impact since the center of each group varied by less than .5" among 6 out of the 7 the types of ammo I tested), the CCI Quiet groups printed about an inch higher than all the others. I find that odd, because all the others are "standard velocity" (1020-1085fps), 40 or 42 grain bullets, but the CCI Quiet is a 40 grain bullet at only 710fps so I would have thought it would have more 'drop'.

Final observation - the Eley Tenex had a nice, tight 8-hole group in about .6", but then a flyer out to the right and another one out to the left. Given that ammo's legendary performance, it's likely that the flyers were my doing.

[6string]

I read the serial number sequences in an old article from a German publication. I'm not sure if I have it anymore, but I did pencil the note into my logbook.
The Model 100 began with number 1001, with an annual production of about 400 pieces per year. The serial number sequence carried through the 101 on to the 103. With the 101/102/103 (concurrent models), the serial numbers reached into the 4000+ range. I recall that the 104 began with serial number 30,000 (or 30,001?). So, naturally people get confused as to how many have been made.
Keep in mind that there are many, many variations and overlaps as old parts were used in newer models. i.e.: early 100-103 trigger group on a 104, etc. Maybe you could call them hybrid models. Variations in finish are commonly encountered. You might find a model 100 with a browned barrel and polished blue receiver, or blued matching barrel & receiver. I seem to recall handling a 100 with a barrel in the white. Also, shooters and gunsmiths occasionally switched out component groups.
The Olympic medal markings on the right side of the receiver often lag behind what one would expect for date of manufacture. So, don't count on these markings to positively identify a model.

A bit of fun trivia: I think the Hammerli 100 is the only free pistol to be used to win all three Olympic medals in two successive summer games (1952 and 1956 ...maybe the Morini has changed that recently??), including the only Gold won by an American (Joe Benner). Hammerli got two out of three in 1960 (missed the Gold) and did another clean sweep in 1964. But, by then this included a mix of the 100-103 models. Not bad considering only a few thousand total were made for the 100-103. Not everyone who wanted one could get one.

Best Regards,
Jim

[kle]

Another interesting thing to me - although I'll bet somebody has a good hypothesis - is that whereas all the different ammo I tested more-or-less printed on the same spot on the target (so you really could interchange ammo in a match without any real loss in point of impact since the center of each group varied by less than .5" among 6 out of the 7 the types of ammo I tested), the CCI Quiet groups printed about an inch higher than all the others. I find that odd, because all the others are "standard velocity" (1020-1085fps), 40 or 42 grain bullets, but the CCI Quiet is a 40 grain bullet at only 710fps so I would have thought it would have more 'drop'.

I notice this when shooting my revolvers in Bullseye, and my shooting mentor told me that if the bullet is going slower, or if the bullet is heavier (takes more time to get it moving), all other things being equal, then it will spend more time in the barrel and thus will experience more muzzle rise due to recoil before the bullet exits the barrel, and so the bullets will hit higher on the target. I mention revolvers since they experience the effects of recoil immediately upon ignition, much like freepistols (and even more dramatically due to the higher bore axis relative to the shooter's hand than freepistols or semi-autos). I think the effect is delayed somewhat for semi-autos due to the slide/bolt's movement.

I'll bet that if you were to set up your test in a way that prevents the gun from moving at all in recoil, you'd probably see that the slower bullet will print lower on the target (relative to the bore axis).

[mparker]

Toz-35. The Toz-35 has been a top-tier pistol for decades, with only the Morini beating it out in the last few years. It still holds the World Record - .

Not true that the toz-35 holds the world record. First of all Melentiev holds the world record and second of all he used a МЦ-55 (MU-55, MTs-55, MC-55) to set the record.

Interesting and thanks. I thought Melentiev used a Pardini.

[mparker]

Given your stated purpose and obvious experience with various "standard" type semi-auto 22s, you would do well to get a few different free pistols in your hands to try the fit.
Since your collection is comprised of high quality guns, you may find the build quality of the TOZ a bit disappointing. Metal and wood work tend to be quite rough, even in relatively "new" condition. The used ones out there tend to be really beat up.
You didn't specify, but if you at all thinking in terms of collectibility, you'd probably be better off with something that has a better track record from an investment standpoint.
A high quality early Hammerli would be an obvious choice, and would be a good fit with your current collection. The early model 100 through the 103 are actually fairly uncommon as only a few thousand total were built. The serial number range started with 1001. The later 104 through to the 107 are much more common.
A Hammerli 150 or 160 would also be a good fit if you prefer something newer.

Best Regards,
Jim

Thanks so much for the spot on comments Jim.

I am leaning toward a Hammerli and I sort of implied that in my original post. Collectibility is not a factor for me though I do have a few collector grade pieces.

To restate: I am not shooting competitively any more and likely never will but I appreciate fine pistols and I shoot regularly with a variety of match grade guns. What I don't have is a free pistol of this classic style.

I bought an IZH 46M as a practice piece almost a year ago. It's fun, cheap to operate, surprisingly good considering its price point but, its not a rimfire.

Thanks again for your comments. We're thinking along similar lines.

And, thanks to all who responded with such cogent and insightful remarks.