Grip pressure Air vs Free?

[bruce em]

Hello,

I am curious how many have experimented with varying grip pressure for air and free?

I used to be a hard holder (in both) but lately I am finding that less is best especially in free and maybe even in air. Free pistol scores had been down for a while and trigger release not always smooth, even in dryfire. There frequently was a twitch of the sights. Same thing for AP. I have eased off lately just let the gun sit there. Very light grip pressure. If I keep trigger pressure on and "squirt the clown", I am getting into the 540s indoor (free).

Rewind a decade (and a half ouch); I told a story here of AP league shoots with fairly constant results of ~1" groups that gave me say 350 of 400 in a 40 shot match. I was behind a week from travel and had to shoot a double. Well after another disappointing (to me then) 350, I got mad and gripped harder. The groups shrank 50 % and I shot something like a 382. I kept up with that practice for a few years and was turning in high 560's and some 570's in the Nationals, CAGP, and top gun. Trouble was there were always twitches and I was at the mercy of the statistics.

I had been working on a number of fronts, nonstop trigger pull quality, consistency of grip, settling in etc.

Now I suspect that the grip pressure simply overcame deficits in trigger control. Better (continuous build, non stop) trigger control can be had only with the lighter grip pressure as the finger isnt immobilized by the grip force.

Free scores are back up but it takes trust to execute that way. I have started experiments with "just sits there" for air. It got me a NYS Championship win with a 562 a last year and it was really easy shooting even tho I hadnt been in training.

Have you tried that variation?

[brent375hh]

I would be hard pressed to quantify how hard I grip. Just like two people talking about love and pain, it is hard to put a value on it, unlike a torque spec. There are 126 views today and nobody has commented, perhaps this is why?

I think I do my best with something that is harder that just holding the pistol but certainly not a squeezing grip.

[seamaster]

You grip harder and your spread shrunk, that is because as you grip harder your wrist gets firmer.

It is the firmer WRIST that made your spread smaller.

If you look at the black and white video of famed Russian Efim Khaidurov teaching two young shooters, one male and one female. You will see Khaidurov slapped the back of young lad's hand, exhorting him to firm up his wrist.

It is firming up of your wrist as you grip harder that made your spread smaller. Sometimes you can shoot well with a loose grip, sometimes you can shoot well with a strong grip. But loose or tight grip is not as important as having a FIRM WRIST.

It is probably easier to remind yourself to have a firm wrist by gripping harder in AP, but that would be counter productive in free pistol.

[Bruce Martindale]

More like a 3 bears (not 3 beers) approach, not too much, not to little, but "just right".

Grip pressure always impacts fine motor skills but higher grip pressure also offsets wild shots from poor trigger control. Trick is getting it just right and just right varies for us all, every day. I can tell you I have jerked many 10s with a tight grip but I also get the twitch if too tight (match nerves, expectations, anxiety) whereas a jerk with a light grip has the more serious risk of a miss. Dry firing is helping to sort it out.

Judge your smoothness and lighten up to match it. I will have to play with it more. I have been on the too tight side of the scale for too long. It works but I dont enjoy it as much as easy shooting with a just right grip. Fixing my free pistol methods has shown me a few things that may apply to other disciplines

regards

[Isabel1130]

It is possible for me to shoot well with a tight or loose grip, but I find a tight grip does two things that hurt my scores. The first thing it does obviously, as you have noted, is affect my trigger finger, and magnify twitches.

The other thing it does it reduces my hold time by about half.

To some extent I can adjust my trigger finger to work well with a tight grip but it requires me to move my trigger finger about an eighth of an inch further into the trigger. I believe that when you have your first joint in the middle of the trigger, or a little past, you can mitigate the problems of a tight grip.

As Tony Silva taught me, you then trigger the gun, by curling the tip of your trigger finger back towards the trigger housing, rather than "pulling" it.

Anatomical grips are a great help in relaxing your grip. And yes, anything that keeps your wrist and elbow stiff is going to help your shooting.

[deadeyedick]

As Tony Silva taught me, you then trigger the gun, by curling the tip of your trigger finger back towards the trigger housing, rather than "pulling" it.

Interesting....wouldn't that tend to laterally displace the alignment of the barrel ?

[Isabel1130]

As Tony Silva taught me, you then trigger the gun, by curling the tip of your trigger finger back towards the trigger housing, rather than "pulling" it.

Interesting....wouldn't that tend to laterally displace the alignment of the barrel ?

No, Movement of the barrel occurs when you get other parts of your hand involved in the shot. If the only thing moving is your trigger finger, the sights and the gun don't move. But your results may vary if your fingers are longer than mine, or if your trigger is longer. The angle of your finger to the blade of the trigger and the width of the blade will affect the angle of your pull, and you may have to adjust your trigger and your finger placement to get good smooth triggering.

[6string]

I'd like to add something strictly from a subjective standpoint.
Bilateral finger motion is controlled by the extender or flexor muscles. That is outward and inward motion respectively. There are degrees of co-dependance that the fingers have upon one another when executing these basic motions. The index finger has the greatest physiological independence, but is by no means free of influence of the other fingers. Since both trigger control and grip pressure are flexor based actions, there is going to be some influence between the two. In other words, the harder you grip, the more sensitivity the index finger loses in dealing with a very light and short moving hair trigger, as on the free pistol.
However, the beginning free pistol shooter often makes faster initial progress, especially if they have previous training in small bore pistol or AP with a firmer grip (within reason). Given the weight and long sight radius of the typical free pistol, a firm grip will instill more confidence by suggesting a steady hold. However, at a certain point in one's progress, scores are liable to plateau.
My experience has been that a relaxation of grip pressure can help. The shooter should have enough experience to realize that "hold" is a fluid thing, and one must accept a certain range of motion. Also, the shooter should be comfortable with the unique recoil of the free pistol and allow it happen through with a minimum of opposing resistance and a good follow through. Grip fit, or at least grip consistency are also important. Once you can trust yourself to let the pistol hang with a minimum of effort, the trigger finger can be trained to use it's new found sensitivity and operate a very light trigger without fear.
Be forewarned that I have no big wins or medals to back this up, just my personal experiences. So, all due respect to the more prolific level shooters.

Best Regards,
Jim

[SamEEE]

I grip in a manner as if I was holding an egg.

Firm enough not to drop it but no so hard as to smash it.

This visualisation always seems to help me regulate grip pressure - I believe that grip power kills fine trigger control.

To prove this, a simple experiment: grip your opposing wrist hard and then try to execute a trigger pull motion. You will see it's much harder to do smoothly than if you just relax your grip.

Locking your wrist is independent of grip, too. Helped me to learn that.

Hope this helps.

TL;DR - Too much grip power kills trigger control dexterity.

[jr]

Thanks for the input, SamEEE.
But perhaps an egg may not be the correct visualisation here - because if you hold an egg in your hand you can squeeze it as hard as you possibly can and it won't break, as long as you're not wearing a ring and you're gripping more or less evenly.
Try it, or see http://www.abc.net.au/science/surfingsc ... le_egg.htm

I grip in a manner as if I was holding an egg.

Firm enough not to drop it but no so hard as to smash it.

Of course, if you have previously been visualizing holding a delicate egg while shooting, my sincere apologies if messes up your hold now that you know you can squeeze as hard as you want :)

[SamEEE]

Try it

Tried it. Couldn't smash egg.

Was genuinely surprised by strength in compression of an eggshell.

Back to the drawing board...

[seamaster]

You have a hard time squashing the egg if you apply 360 degree circumferential equal force from all around.

You grip an egg like we squeeze the pistol, front and back. You will have a squashed egg all over your hand. I don't think analogy of squeezing an egg apply to pistol grip at all.

[Isabel1130]

Try it

Tried it. Couldn't smash egg.

Was genuinely surprised by strength in compression of an eggshell.

Back to the drawing board...

The way Jim Henderson describes it, is you grip the gun with about the same amount of pressure that you would use, holding a child's hand to cross the street. This would be a good child, that wants to cross the street with you, and not a naughty one, in the midst of kicking and biting you...:-).

[David M]

Try a search, also look at these posts
viewtopic.php?t=41100&highlight=grip+pressure
viewtopic.php?t=41595&start=0&postdays= ... p+pressure

[bruce em]

Well it is working in BE, at least with a 22 and good fitting grips. The easy hold is dampening out the vibrations and letting the wobble settle down. I was back shooting mid 90s Slow and the better sustained were 99 7x and 100s (low x). It feels good and like I used to shoot but I am at risk for snatching or jerking. I suspect grip pressure has to be proportional to the caliber or better yet actual trigger force. So in that vein a loosie wont work with a 45 which is the issue I had 10 years ago when I could shoot 880 in 22 and follow up with 820 s in 45


Always wondered how a FP shot could get messed up when the trigger is only 18 grams. I suspect it is the trigger finger motion affecting the other fingers and making them move. So the lighter grip there also dampens that.

regards

[Isabel1130]

Well it is working in BE, at least with a 22 and good fitting grips. The easy hold is dampening out the vibrations and letting the wobble settle down. I was back shooting mid 90s Slow and the better sustained were 99 7x and 100s (low x). It feels good and like I used to shoot but I am at risk for snatching or jerking. I suspect grip pressure has to be proportional to the caliber or better yet actual trigger force. So in that vein a loosie wont work with a 45 which is the issue I had 10 years ago when I could shoot 880 in 22 and follow up with 820 s in 45


Always wondered how a FP shot could get messed up when the trigger is only 18 grams. I suspect it is the trigger finger motion affecting the other fingers and making them move. So the lighter grip there also dampens that.

regards

Are you shooting a roll trigger, or a crisp trigger with your 45?

I have found that a roll trigger will actually help prevent snatching and jerking, which is why many shooters are getting good results with it.

[rmca]

Always wondered how a FP shot could get messed up when the trigger is only 18 grams. I suspect it is the trigger finger motion affecting the other fingers and making them move. So the lighter grip there also dampens that.

The difficulty of free pistol is the distance to the target. The ten ring is 5cm (1,97 inches) and it's 50 meters (54.68 yards) away. ANY movement, no matter how tiny, will show up in spades on the target.
So yes, even a 18 gram trigger can play a role in a bad shot, although most of the times it's the hold and the gripping (or lack of it) that causes bad shots.

[RandomShotz]

most of the times it's the hold and the griping (or lack of it) that causes bad shots.

Actually, I think you mean "gripping". Griping usually comes after the bad shot.

Roger

[rmca]

most of the times it's the hold and the griping (or lack of it) that causes bad shots.

Actually, I think you mean "gripping". Griping usually comes after the bad shot.

Roger

Yep... I meant gripping... Although griping is always a constant in free pistol :) (after I checked what it meant... I've learn something new!)

I've corrected the post above. Thanks Roger, a misspelled word can completely disrupt the meaning of a sentence...

[bruce em]

Remember there are different targets and distances; each can manifest different errors.

A perfectly aligned platform (gun) can move up down, left or right by an inch and still score a 10 at 50 meters. That movement at the 50 foot target will move you out of the black.

Angular error (simple sight misalignment) accumulates with distance as does (even worse) a shot with some motion to it (a lateral velocity). This is a common trigger induced motion; a dynamic error (yank on it and the gun moves). So I knew the sights were aligned and the hold was steady but even at 18 grams, I was introducing motion to the gun, in this case not thru the trigger but from a sympathetic grip response (a twitch from the other fingers)

I should have clarified I was at 50feet on a B11 and with a tight grip and a fairly steady hold I would get fliers and I think the error was from milking the grip unintentionally; the twitch I was referring to.

regards