If the portable stands are what I know as a "machine rest", some caution is in order.
I don't know what facilities are at Eley, but I suspect it is a heavy machine rest, inside a closed room/tunnel? The point is, is it not outside in the weather?
I do not believe a machine rest is the "end all, be all" of ammo selection. Sure, you can test a lot of ammo, with great repeatability, but you should narrow it down to 3-5 lots, and then shoot them outside, at different range, best done in the exact same way you normally shoot, with a 30x-40x scope, and perhaps a sandbag under your forward wrist prone.
There are changes to the gun when a shooter holds it that might not show up on a machine rest. In addition, the machine rests I have heard of are indoors, so no wind-bucking ability is measured.
In the late 1980's I was at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, and I had the opportunity to use the massive machine rest there. I tested about 15 lots of ammo, and narrowed it down to the top five, and then shot them holding the gun outdoors. The top machine rest shooter I determined to be #4 best out of the five outdoors, machine rest #2 ended up being number 3 outdoors.
Final ammo selection is very subjective, and top shooters are always testing new lots of ammo.
As far as what I have heard about best/worst Eley, rumers I heard long ago is most of the top stuff is the same. They test the ammo, and if it meets Tenex specs, they make it Tenex. If it falls short, it becomes Eley Black, etc, etc.
Jeff
new .22 barrel needed, best gunsmith to do the work?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Pretty sure there is no such thing as a good or bad batch of Tenex. Just batches that will shoot in one gun over another. As long as it reaches the required consistency through the test barrels, and started out on the line as a potential Tenex batch then thats it. Batches that may shoot around the 10-12mm region in some barrels may only make 25mm plus in others. I believe that in the past (not so sure about how things work these days with the different bullets and all) if a batch started out as match or club and it reached the QC requirements of a higher spec ammunition type that they would not "upgrade" it. This was the reason that sometimes there would be batches of Club or Match that were exceedingly good become available.
As for other manufactures, I know that Ruag UK can arrange for you to test at the RWS facility in Germany. If your in the South East at least, it's can be a one day out and back on Air Berlin via Heathrow.
Alan
As for other manufactures, I know that Ruag UK can arrange for you to test at the RWS facility in Germany. If your in the South East at least, it's can be a one day out and back on Air Berlin via Heathrow.
Alan
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
My opinion on ammo testing:
All that matters is the lot numbers. I have probably shot upwards of 50 different lots through my rifle while lot testing. I also think that shooting a great group through a rifle in a machine rest is the first step to lot testing. Once that is done, you should shoot it from the shoulder in position. If your prone abilities are not fantastic, put a scope on the rifle and shoot it from position. When doing this focus on the shot's location based on your call. (so if you call a nine and it is a nine, its a good shot).
The last time I tested smallbore ammo, I narrowed it down to two lots. One lot of Eley Tenex, and one lot of Tenex pistol. The Tenex tested at an avg of ~11mm over 3 ten shot groups. The pistol averaged 14mm. I then shot them from the shoulder the next day and shot a 299 with each one. The following day I shot the one I felt better about at managed a 599 with damn near every shot on call. And just so you know, I would feel fine shooting either lot at any match.
I would suggest cleaning your barrel after every training session. It just keeps it more consistent. I always know that my gun is in the same condition every time I go down to shoot it. And my gun takes 1 round to foul with a spotless bore. I would suggest cleaning it by using a bore guide, a single piece coated rod, snug fitting patches, a brush, and a solvent of your choice. I like Hoppes, Butches, Kroil, etc... Just watch to make sure the brush and jag enter the muzzle without hitting the crown.
You PROBABLY don't need a new barrel. You just didn't find a lot of ammo that your gun liked.
Matt
All that matters is the lot numbers. I have probably shot upwards of 50 different lots through my rifle while lot testing. I also think that shooting a great group through a rifle in a machine rest is the first step to lot testing. Once that is done, you should shoot it from the shoulder in position. If your prone abilities are not fantastic, put a scope on the rifle and shoot it from position. When doing this focus on the shot's location based on your call. (so if you call a nine and it is a nine, its a good shot).
The last time I tested smallbore ammo, I narrowed it down to two lots. One lot of Eley Tenex, and one lot of Tenex pistol. The Tenex tested at an avg of ~11mm over 3 ten shot groups. The pistol averaged 14mm. I then shot them from the shoulder the next day and shot a 299 with each one. The following day I shot the one I felt better about at managed a 599 with damn near every shot on call. And just so you know, I would feel fine shooting either lot at any match.
I would suggest cleaning your barrel after every training session. It just keeps it more consistent. I always know that my gun is in the same condition every time I go down to shoot it. And my gun takes 1 round to foul with a spotless bore. I would suggest cleaning it by using a bore guide, a single piece coated rod, snug fitting patches, a brush, and a solvent of your choice. I like Hoppes, Butches, Kroil, etc... Just watch to make sure the brush and jag enter the muzzle without hitting the crown.
You PROBABLY don't need a new barrel. You just didn't find a lot of ammo that your gun liked.
Matt
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
AMMO
X2 what Matt said.
I also normally chronograph my shots when I narrow it down to a few lots and go shoot outdoors. If I have a couple of lots that shoot equally well, I would use the best chrono standard deviation as a tie bereaker.
Normally I have SD's of 5-7 for 50 shot groups. But one time I had great ammo that has a SD of 15.
Jeff
I also normally chronograph my shots when I narrow it down to a few lots and go shoot outdoors. If I have a couple of lots that shoot equally well, I would use the best chrono standard deviation as a tie bereaker.
Normally I have SD's of 5-7 for 50 shot groups. But one time I had great ammo that has a SD of 15.
Jeff
bore scope
finding this discussion most interesting too, quite happy for it to veer in any direction.
Have just come back from spending a very interesting hour at a local gun maker. My rifle was bore scoped & to my horror rust, lead and scratches were found. The rust is very minor, more like a stain, again lead & scratching is minor. This from a rifle I take very great care of. Hate to think of the state of the club rifle bores or the members guns who do not clean them from one year to the next.
It was demonstrated to me that the scratches are caused by the cleaning rod. It is a one piece VFG steel rod. A piece of steel was polished & then my rod pushed along it, the result, scratches on the polished metal.
Advise given was to polish the barrel with VFG blue paste and fluffy fourbytwo for about 4 hours.
Will pop into the NSRA shop this week & pick up the stuff and give it a go.
Have just come back from spending a very interesting hour at a local gun maker. My rifle was bore scoped & to my horror rust, lead and scratches were found. The rust is very minor, more like a stain, again lead & scratching is minor. This from a rifle I take very great care of. Hate to think of the state of the club rifle bores or the members guns who do not clean them from one year to the next.
It was demonstrated to me that the scratches are caused by the cleaning rod. It is a one piece VFG steel rod. A piece of steel was polished & then my rod pushed along it, the result, scratches on the polished metal.
Advise given was to polish the barrel with VFG blue paste and fluffy fourbytwo for about 4 hours.
Will pop into the NSRA shop this week & pick up the stuff and give it a go.
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
barrel damage
I am one of the no barrel cleaning variety.
A couple of reasons why I think I can get away with it:
I live in a dry region, Los Angeles. I suspect it is easier on un-cleaned barrels than a humid region.
My barrels are stainless steel.
I use a plastic coated rod, and I am very careful to clean it before it goes down my barrel.
Jeff
A couple of reasons why I think I can get away with it:
I live in a dry region, Los Angeles. I suspect it is easier on un-cleaned barrels than a humid region.
My barrels are stainless steel.
I use a plastic coated rod, and I am very careful to clean it before it goes down my barrel.
Jeff
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Thedrifter
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
stainless will rust
Jeff,
Is this Jeff Tandy by chance?
Anyways I just thought I would share that just because your barrel is stainless does not mean that it will not rust. Stainless 416 has a high Iron content making it soft and ideal for machining purposes. but susceptible to rust if not cared for.
Stainless steel is only rest resistant. I know this first hand because I have a stainless barrel that is showing early signs of rust (small patch on the outside of the barrel). The saddest part is that this barrel is new (September 2013). and I thought I had cared for it properly in its short time.
As for my cleaning I clean after each brick of ammo; However, I push a patch through the bore at the end of each training session or competition. to remove some of the gunk buildup.
Sincerely,
Cameron
Is this Jeff Tandy by chance?
Anyways I just thought I would share that just because your barrel is stainless does not mean that it will not rust. Stainless 416 has a high Iron content making it soft and ideal for machining purposes. but susceptible to rust if not cared for.
Stainless steel is only rest resistant. I know this first hand because I have a stainless barrel that is showing early signs of rust (small patch on the outside of the barrel). The saddest part is that this barrel is new (September 2013). and I thought I had cared for it properly in its short time.
As for my cleaning I clean after each brick of ammo; However, I push a patch through the bore at the end of each training session or competition. to remove some of the gunk buildup.
Sincerely,
Cameron
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Barrel
Nope, different Jeff.
I agree, stainless is not rust proof: just resistant.
However, you must have your gun in very different conditions than mine, as mine has no signs of rust after 25+ years.
I would, however, typically wipe the outside with a silicone cloth before putting gun away. And before going to Camp Perry, I would wax the entire action. (and clean barrel before and after Perry).
Jeff
I agree, stainless is not rust proof: just resistant.
However, you must have your gun in very different conditions than mine, as mine has no signs of rust after 25+ years.
I would, however, typically wipe the outside with a silicone cloth before putting gun away. And before going to Camp Perry, I would wax the entire action. (and clean barrel before and after Perry).
Jeff
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Thedrifter
- Posts: 276
- Joined: Thu May 05, 2011 8:26 am
- Location: San Antonio, TX
wax
yes, I just ordered a 3 part system a week ago to help with my problem, Flitz stainless cleaner, polish, and wax. The barrel manufacturer suggested that I durakote or cerakote... not my first choice.
A very respectable and knowledgeable coach at my range is looking into the manner for a product suggested by Tanner Rifles a few years ago, it will basically cold blue the barrel. Perhaps I post that solution up when I find a suitable answer. In the mean time I wait at the door for my package.
I don't think my conditions are too different from yours, as I only live 2 hours north. but I could be wrong.
A very respectable and knowledgeable coach at my range is looking into the manner for a product suggested by Tanner Rifles a few years ago, it will basically cold blue the barrel. Perhaps I post that solution up when I find a suitable answer. In the mean time I wait at the door for my package.
I don't think my conditions are too different from yours, as I only live 2 hours north. but I could be wrong.
Re: wax
It all depends on the specifics of the climate where someone lives. Most of the humidity in this part of the world blows in from the Pacific, and if you're somewhere that's sheltered from that influence you're good. If you're not, however, even stainless can rust literally overnight. Ask me how I know this...Thedrifter wrote:I don't think my conditions are too different from yours, as I only live 2 hours north. but I could be wrong.
Interesting discussion. A topic that will never be settled.
My 2 cents worth are as follows:
Tim don't be an ass. Almost every one I know needs to shoot foulers after each cleaning. Some say it is why they don't clean often. I think it is more likely they are tired and lazy at the end of the day and just want a cold beer.
Some people clean as often as after each target. Some every season. If it works for you do it.
As to barrel life I think barrels last longer than some people think. I have a similar experience to meter match . I have an 1813 with Anschutz barrel with probably 100,000 rounds through it and about a dozen national records.
I am a firm believer in throwing barrels in the trash if you try several lots and brands of ammo and none work. Life is too short to shoot with a bad rifle. A case of ammo now costs $1800, a trip to an away match with motel, ammo, entry fee ect. is several hundred. And a barrel is only about $3-400.
Another suggestion is don't be "married" to one barrel brand, gunsmith or ammo. Its all so variable that what works today might not tomorrow, especially with ammo.
meter match you are lucky to have a rifle made by Karl. I believe he knew things other gunsmiths don't and as far as I know he took the information to the grave with him.
My 2 cents worth are as follows:
Tim don't be an ass. Almost every one I know needs to shoot foulers after each cleaning. Some say it is why they don't clean often. I think it is more likely they are tired and lazy at the end of the day and just want a cold beer.
Some people clean as often as after each target. Some every season. If it works for you do it.
As to barrel life I think barrels last longer than some people think. I have a similar experience to meter match . I have an 1813 with Anschutz barrel with probably 100,000 rounds through it and about a dozen national records.
I am a firm believer in throwing barrels in the trash if you try several lots and brands of ammo and none work. Life is too short to shoot with a bad rifle. A case of ammo now costs $1800, a trip to an away match with motel, ammo, entry fee ect. is several hundred. And a barrel is only about $3-400.
Another suggestion is don't be "married" to one barrel brand, gunsmith or ammo. Its all so variable that what works today might not tomorrow, especially with ammo.
meter match you are lucky to have a rifle made by Karl. I believe he knew things other gunsmiths don't and as far as I know he took the information to the grave with him.
I'd just like to point out that here in the UK we have only one domestic barrel manufacturer and probably a handful of gunsmiths who could put together a match quality smallbore rifle.
Barrels coming from the US are subject to shipping, import duties & tax which brings the price way up - and then you have to pay (and wait for) the smith to fit it.
And with no guarantee that the thing will shoot at the end of it all.....
Junking a barrel that won't shoot is a bigger deal for us - but then we have lots of batches of ammo to test, so finding some decent bullets is easier.
I'd also like t suggest that there may be other reasons that a rifle won't perform apart from the barrel being worn or damaged.
YMMV.
Ken.
Barrels coming from the US are subject to shipping, import duties & tax which brings the price way up - and then you have to pay (and wait for) the smith to fit it.
And with no guarantee that the thing will shoot at the end of it all.....
Junking a barrel that won't shoot is a bigger deal for us - but then we have lots of batches of ammo to test, so finding some decent bullets is easier.
I'd also like t suggest that there may be other reasons that a rifle won't perform apart from the barrel being worn or damaged.
YMMV.
Ken.
Last edited by KennyB on Tue Dec 10, 2013 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Barrels
You said it succinctly, gwsb
My not frequently cleaning barrels can be classified as a combination of lazy, and not seeing a huge difference. Also, the ammo wasted on fouling a cleaned barrel. I would definately clean after a match if the conditions were humid, or the gun got wet, or I think I cleaned after every day at Camp Perry.
I also agree that barrels should be considerd throw-aways. I was thinking of making that point to the original poster, suggesting that if he has the resources to travel to Eley to test $1800 ammo, and then finds a questionable barrel, why then take any steps to save it? Trash it and get another.
You are also correct about Karl Kenyon. Many top shooters have had guns built by him. I was actually going to have him rebarrel my rifle just for the heck of it about 5 years ago, but never got around to sending it to him. I think that is when I bought a new Anschutz 2013.
Karls' trigger is superb. Many think it is the best trigger ever made. (handmade)
Another under rated item is the Sam Gates rear sight. Sam built one for me special with 1/6 minute clicks and delivered it to me in person at Camp Perry 1986. Real nice guy, and nice sight.
Jeff
My not frequently cleaning barrels can be classified as a combination of lazy, and not seeing a huge difference. Also, the ammo wasted on fouling a cleaned barrel. I would definately clean after a match if the conditions were humid, or the gun got wet, or I think I cleaned after every day at Camp Perry.
I also agree that barrels should be considerd throw-aways. I was thinking of making that point to the original poster, suggesting that if he has the resources to travel to Eley to test $1800 ammo, and then finds a questionable barrel, why then take any steps to save it? Trash it and get another.
You are also correct about Karl Kenyon. Many top shooters have had guns built by him. I was actually going to have him rebarrel my rifle just for the heck of it about 5 years ago, but never got around to sending it to him. I think that is when I bought a new Anschutz 2013.
Karls' trigger is superb. Many think it is the best trigger ever made. (handmade)
Another under rated item is the Sam Gates rear sight. Sam built one for me special with 1/6 minute clicks and delivered it to me in person at Camp Perry 1986. Real nice guy, and nice sight.
Jeff
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Barrels
Kenny, I sympathize with your plight. Barrels may be easier for us in the US.
In the last few years I bought a Lilja 27" barrel and a Lilja 21" barrel for a 2013 Anschutz, for $325 and $375.
I haven't installed them yet, but it is a 15 minute process on the 2013. No gunsmith needed.
I believe the round action Anschutz actions are pinned. I don't know if that makes it any easier to install and headspace, but it isn't normally an owner installed item.
Karl Kenyon did not like the pinned method of barrel installation. He threaded my 1813 action, and then screwed in the Schneider barrel. My guess is that would add $250-$350 to the cost of a barrel today.
Jeff
In the last few years I bought a Lilja 27" barrel and a Lilja 21" barrel for a 2013 Anschutz, for $325 and $375.
I haven't installed them yet, but it is a 15 minute process on the 2013. No gunsmith needed.
I believe the round action Anschutz actions are pinned. I don't know if that makes it any easier to install and headspace, but it isn't normally an owner installed item.
Karl Kenyon did not like the pinned method of barrel installation. He threaded my 1813 action, and then screwed in the Schneider barrel. My guess is that would add $250-$350 to the cost of a barrel today.
Jeff
How rude! That's offensive and unneccesary.gwsb wrote: Tim don't be an ass. Almost every one I know needs to shoot foulers after each cleaning. Some say it is why they don't clean often. I think it is more likely they are tired and lazy at the end of the day and just want a cold beer.
Yes I was a little sarcastic, but only in repsonse to a crass generalisation. As I wrote in earlier "Anyone" and "almost every one" is not everyone. This forum is not just for elite shooters who have the knowledge to filter information, so it irritates me when personal opinion is presented as Gospel truth to new or inexperienced shooters.
I realise that Jeff meant "all the top level shooters that I'm aquanited with", and was employing a figure of speech, which is all perfectly valid, but his post could be misconstrued.
Please don't drag this forum down to ad hominem attacks.
And yet my 1913 with factory barrel will always put at least two shots high after cleaning. It also likes to be warmed up with 2-3 shots before starting sighters. FWIW, I'm shooting RWS.Dave IRL wrote:My own rifle, and most of the others I'm around a lot of the time, do not require fouling shots after cleaning. Mine is cleaned every time it's shot and shot one afterwards goes into the same pile as shots 2-100.
Jason
As has been said earlier ... your mileage on this will vary so the only way to know is to test.
But, in my experience there is always a sight change between a clean and a fouled bore with .22LR. I headed up a junior's program for a bit over a decade. We had about 50 club guns, everything from old CMP loaners, hand me downs and even a few home built actions with cobbled on parts (which actually shot quite well by the way). We also had several top line Anschutz, Walther, and other high end guns. We kept a written log for each rifle including notes on cleaning and sight settings.
Over the this time period I watched in detail those 50+ guns, as well as several hundred other rifles that were brought and owned by the club members ( I required them to keep rifle logs too, part of their shooing kit). I also shot on the club 4P team and was intimate with all of the teams guns. I also was the adjutant for a university shooting team for a few years.
So I've probably paid close attention to the shooting characteristics of perhaps 500 rifles that were capable of some level of sanctioned competition. I can honestly say I don't know of a single one of those guns that shot to the same point of impact with a clean versus fouled barrel.
The better guns settled down quite quickly ... some within a few shots, but there was always a notable point of impact change.
Some of the old CMP loaners took many rounds to settle down, so we only cleaned the bore once per year (the rest of the rifle was cleaned after each use) and pretty much used them only to introduce shooters to the sport.
Since these new shooters were shooting prone off a rest at a very large target the "pattern size" of these guns the first few hundred rounds post cleaning really didn't matter. The new kids were dealing with learning basic sight picture and trigger manipulation and as you can imagine caused more accuracy issues with their technique than the clean vs. fouled bore.
So what does all this mean ... well a sample size of 500 or so out of how many rifles out there? Ten's of millions perhaps? I guess it means your mileage may vary.
So go and test ... it's shooting after all right?
But, in my experience there is always a sight change between a clean and a fouled bore with .22LR. I headed up a junior's program for a bit over a decade. We had about 50 club guns, everything from old CMP loaners, hand me downs and even a few home built actions with cobbled on parts (which actually shot quite well by the way). We also had several top line Anschutz, Walther, and other high end guns. We kept a written log for each rifle including notes on cleaning and sight settings.
Over the this time period I watched in detail those 50+ guns, as well as several hundred other rifles that were brought and owned by the club members ( I required them to keep rifle logs too, part of their shooing kit). I also shot on the club 4P team and was intimate with all of the teams guns. I also was the adjutant for a university shooting team for a few years.
So I've probably paid close attention to the shooting characteristics of perhaps 500 rifles that were capable of some level of sanctioned competition. I can honestly say I don't know of a single one of those guns that shot to the same point of impact with a clean versus fouled barrel.
The better guns settled down quite quickly ... some within a few shots, but there was always a notable point of impact change.
Some of the old CMP loaners took many rounds to settle down, so we only cleaned the bore once per year (the rest of the rifle was cleaned after each use) and pretty much used them only to introduce shooters to the sport.
Since these new shooters were shooting prone off a rest at a very large target the "pattern size" of these guns the first few hundred rounds post cleaning really didn't matter. The new kids were dealing with learning basic sight picture and trigger manipulation and as you can imagine caused more accuracy issues with their technique than the clean vs. fouled bore.
So what does all this mean ... well a sample size of 500 or so out of how many rifles out there? Ten's of millions perhaps? I guess it means your mileage may vary.
So go and test ... it's shooting after all right?
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metermatch
- Posts: 196
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:30 pm
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Barrels
To Tim S:
Yes, you have some valid points about my generalizations.
But most people in the real world understand that intuitavely, as most comments written in any forum are quick notes thought out, not something that was composed over hours of time, and then carefully proofreaded by a clerical staff, then sent to legal for their approval, then management approval, etc, and then published.
In the public arena, it is nearly impossible to not offend anyones sensibilities with something said. There is always one in the crowd.
You, Tim S, were that one.
If there is always someone in the crowd ready to nit pick and jump down the throat of someone making a comment, then ideas, particularily contriversial ones, won't get posted, and we all lose.
You were called the name for a reason. Learn from it, and don't take it personally
Jeff
Yes, you have some valid points about my generalizations.
But most people in the real world understand that intuitavely, as most comments written in any forum are quick notes thought out, not something that was composed over hours of time, and then carefully proofreaded by a clerical staff, then sent to legal for their approval, then management approval, etc, and then published.
In the public arena, it is nearly impossible to not offend anyones sensibilities with something said. There is always one in the crowd.
You, Tim S, were that one.
If there is always someone in the crowd ready to nit pick and jump down the throat of someone making a comment, then ideas, particularily contriversial ones, won't get posted, and we all lose.
You were called the name for a reason. Learn from it, and don't take it personally
Jeff
Could I bring this thread back to the subject of barrel damage and ask a few questions?
Nigel, did the VFG paste work and have you retested the grouping results?
Is lead fouling easily removed with a phosphor bronze brush or does it need to be polished out?
The reason I ask is that I've just returned to smallbore shooting and bought a second hand 1813 and, although it shoots very well, I'm concerned that there might be lead deposits in the barrel as it is now twenty something years old!
On the subject of fouling rounds I did read a test that showed the first round through their clean barrel, with no grease and less friction, was 100 feet per second quicker than the following subsequent rounds. This seems to fit with my own experiences.
Thanks
Bryan
Nigel, did the VFG paste work and have you retested the grouping results?
Is lead fouling easily removed with a phosphor bronze brush or does it need to be polished out?
The reason I ask is that I've just returned to smallbore shooting and bought a second hand 1813 and, although it shoots very well, I'm concerned that there might be lead deposits in the barrel as it is now twenty something years old!
On the subject of fouling rounds I did read a test that showed the first round through their clean barrel, with no grease and less friction, was 100 feet per second quicker than the following subsequent rounds. This seems to fit with my own experiences.
Thanks
Bryan