Air Rifle Time Rules / Sighters

ravensedge · Post by **ravensedge** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:32 pm

Looking for clarification - I have read the rules so many times I have confused myself (not hard to do).

We shoot air rifle on paper targets without target carriers, we have 2 targets hung at a time.

I believe I understand most of the rules as far as initial sighting and relay time but have one question I need clarification on.

When we hang the 2nd series of targets and call the shooters back to the line - Do they have an opportunity to return to sighters? If so is that a specific period of time prior to record shots or within the amount of time allotted for the record shots.?

Thanks

dschaller · Post by **dschaller** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:20 pm

If you are shooting USA Shooting rules, the specifics for your match are provided in the Rifle Rules, rule USAS 7.9, on page 339. There are unlimited sighters during each 20 shot, 25 minute stage (2 for women, 3 for men). There is a three minute preparation time after each target change. Since the chart says sighters are "unlimited during stage time", I would interpret this as no sighters during the 3 minute preparation period after each target change.

ravensedge · Post by **ravensedge** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:36 pm

That was my initial assumption as well then I read the following:

USAS 6.11.1.1C When more than one multipe bull’seye target can be hung at one time; all sighter bulls-eye on all targets hung may be used for sighting by the athlete. Once the athlete goes from sighting to competition, the athlete may not go back to the sighting bulls-eye. If the match requires breaking of position to hang additional targets in order to complete the aggregate of the position; the athlete must be given additional sighting time and all sighting bulls-eye on the targets hung may be used before going to the competition bulls-eye.

dschaller wrote:If you are shooting USA Shooting rules, the specifics for your match are provided in the Rifle Rules, rule USAS 7.9, on page 339. There are unlimited sighters during each 20 shot, 25 minute stage (2 for women, 3 for men). There is a three minute preparation time after each target change. Since the chart says sighters are "unlimited during stage time", I would interpret this as no sighters during the 3 minute preparation period after each target change.

dschaller · Post by **dschaller** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:57 pm

I agree that 25 minutes for 20 shots does not appear to provide "additional sighting time", as 25 minutes for 20 shots is the same amount of time per shot as provided for a normal match (50 minutes for 40 shots and 75 minutes for 60 shots). It is also clear that sighters can't be shot after the first record shot on a target. Are they supposed to shoot any unlimited sighters they want during the 3 minute prep period?

ravensedge · Post by **ravensedge** » Sat Sep 28, 2013 5:02 pm

And that is my confusion - Season getting ready to start and I am still unsure.

dschaller wrote:I agree that 25 minutes for 20 shots does not appear to provide "additional sighting time", as 25 minutes for 20 shots is the same amount of time per shot as provided for a normal match (50 minutes for 40 shots and 75 minutes for 60 shots). It is also clear that sighters can't be shot after the first record shot on a target. Are they supposed to shoot any unlimited sighters they want during the 3 minute prep period?

ravensedge · Post by **ravensedge** » Sun Sep 29, 2013 9:19 pm

We must be the only ones left on the forum that still have to shoot on paper with no target carriers. Thought for sure someone would know the answer to this.

rmarsh · Post by **rmarsh** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:23 am

No, you are not the only ones shooting paper. Apparently no one knows the answer! We have a state Championship / JO qualifer match coming up in about 6 weeks. It will be on paper targets. Right now we plan to give them 3 min of "prep time" holding, dry fire, after target changes. That does not seem right, but that is what what the rules appear to say. I hope someone who really knows will set us straight!

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:54 am

rmarsh wrote:I hope someone who really knows will set us straight!

Can I suggest that you should ask USAS a direct question.

It's not an ISSF rule so you need to ask the rulemakers.

BigAl · Post by **BigAl** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:57 am

Not US based, but certainly here in the UK if we were shooting to ISSF rules at 50m on the three card system then for prone matches the time for shooting on paper targets is divided by three and that's it. Although you are allowed additional sighters at the start of each of the three details.

It is this new separation of sighting/prep and match that makes things difficult with trying to shoot matches this way. I guess the simple answer to those who have to run ISSF style shoots on paper targets without changers is to have your initial sighters and prep as normal and then a shorter period at the start of each detail. After all how many sighter shots do you need to know if you have gone back to the correct position, and to check that your sights/rifle were not interfered with while you were changing targets? The other option is to treat it as a delay under ISSF rules that allows additional unlimited sighters within the existing match time. This would obviate the need for a prep time before each detail. This is going to be an issue until National Governing Bodies can work out how to bring domestic events using different types of targetry as closely as possible to the comparable ISSF rules. Of course some of the new the ISSF rules are still taking a little time to work out fully at our fully compliant National Level competitions.

Alan

redschietti · Post by **redschietti** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:14 am

"Right now we plan to give them 3 min of "prep time" holding, dry fire, after target changes. That does not seem right, "

not right and not fair when directly comparing scores to shooters shooting on electronics during JO qualifiers.

The rules say additional sighters, just not how much time to allow...USA needs to rule b4 JO qualifiers. What is CMP doing? Do they have a rule?

COBelties · Post by **COBelties** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:51 am

redschietti wrote: not right and not fair when directly comparing scores to shooters shooting on electronics during JO qualifiers.

Just curious (not trying to be antagonistic), how so and not fair to whom? When a shooter on electronic targets breaks position to step away from the line they don't get additional sighter shots. In 60 single shot paper (such as at the OTC before the upgrade) or electronics I see shooters step away quite often (especially in younger shooters) to take breaks or talk to their coach, when they come back they reset and dry fire before record shots

Personally it seems an advantage to the paper target youth (if allowed to take sighters) to take a break every 20 shots and be allowed to re-sight in. It would provide a mental break and a chance to refocus, the downside obviously if they are dialed in and they have to reset. If anything the disadvantage to shooting (2) ten bull targets is not having the consistency of the bull in the same spot and either introduce bend into the position or constantly adjusting the position. Our kids train on ten bull targets as well, and we fight this all the time.

Just a few thoughts.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 11:52 am

It appears to me that all sighters are to be fired in firing stage period.
No extra time given in these stages.

BUT ... when doing the "hang 2 paper target each stage" hopdance these shooters do get extra rest, extra prep, and extra sighters in the middle of the match. (A wash in the fairness points since the folks firing on electronics have no opportunity for extra time for rest?)

JO qualifier procedures are all over the map anyway ...
In Air - some shooting paper/hand scoring, some shooting paper/ORION scoring, some shooting electronics (Megalink, Meyton, etc) and even some that shoot the 10m air match outdoors.
Look also at smallbore ... again - paper/hand, paper/orion, electronic ... some outdoors, even some that are firing 50m(much disadvantage to those kids!)

USA Shooting's philosophy is that all is OK as long as it is the same across the state (even though in actuality it is not in some states). They are looking for: (in order of what I consider what they think is important)
1) The State Winner
2) Auto qualifiers
3) The rest
If you notice, they HAVE NOT changed the way they will do selections this year as opposed to last year.

(Jim .. watch for a PM)

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:07 pm

redschietti wrote: What is CMP doing? Do they have a rule?

CMP primarily shoots 3-P air and on a 3x20 the two targets are hung together.
The only time that a 60 shot international match is fired, it is in the Army Championship (Sporter 3x20, Precision 60 International) and they are fired on electronics.
However, they do call out a 5 minute sighter stage after the target changeover if you are shooting these on paper targets (such as in the qualifiers).
(CMP 3-P Air Rule 5.3.4)

redschietti · Post by **redschietti** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:04 pm

"When a shooter on electronic targets breaks position to step away from the line they don't get additional sighter shots."

They made that choice to break position. Hopefully they weighed the pros and cons of sitting down. Its very possible to shoot all 60 w out breaking. Forcing a shooter to break position every 20 shots is not the same thing. A single bull electronic target is easier then 20 shots on separate bulls (2 12 bull targets at a time). True I suppose it is a break, tromping down range and changing targets, getting back into position and starting again. Any shooter I know would pick electronic and 40 or 60 shots in a row over that. The top shooters don't let any of this bother them but THEY EXPECT TO KNOW what the rules will be, before the match(s)

I didn't know if CMP had addressed it or not. I would suggest a 5 min prep and sighting time, with a hard start to match after 5 min or sighters during the allowed time.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:38 pm

redschietti wrote:I would suggest a 5 min prep and sighting time, with a hard start to match after 5 min or sighters during the allowed time.

Send a note to Tyler :-)
It'll be about 2 weeks before they announce the hosts, so there is time for them to consider it....

redschietti · Post by **redschietti** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:19 pm

I just emailed a letter to USAS shooting asking them to address the problem. It seems unimportant but i'm sure a few minutes of sighters will make the difference for at least one shooter qualifying for JO's. It is the most important junior match of the year for most and needs to be done right.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:06 pm

OK,

So what is the idea?
We need 3 minutes plus 5 minutes after a target change for prep and sighters?

How about 8 minutes combined? 7 minutes? Something else?

The reason I'm asking is that it is not in the rules, so what should it be?

Next question: 3x20 and 3x40 what about the change over in positions?

Another 15 minute prep and sighting time? 5 minutes change over and 10 minutes prep and sighting time?

And what about the time limits difference between 3x40 and 3x20? Does that make sense just dividing the time by half? why would you get 45 minutes for standing in a 3x20 and yet only 38 minutes for each 20 shots if you are shooting a 3x40? Does that make any sense? I'm just asking the questions here. I don't have any better ideas than you do. Do you have some ideas that we can make this better to work with the targetry that you have?

I cannot promise that your solution will be the one chosen, but what I can promise is that we will consider them all.

Marcus

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:20 pm

Marcus ...

Jim has a suggestion in to USAS Competitions for either a 3 min prep & 5 min sighter or a combined 8 min prep/sighter period when we change the targets in AR.
I think that when you look at what CMP does this is reasonable.

Smallbore (for most) is a bit easier in that a majority can hang all 6 targets for the 3x20 qualifier and it has always been that the sighters were in the firing time. There is plenty of time there for each position to get sighters in. (no 3x40 for JO quals).

The differences between the 3x20 times and the 3x40 times look really goofy I'm guessing in that that the 3x40 time for men is not double the 3x20 time for women. I think that the "long" period in prone & standing is a "holdover" from the PSK days and thought was not really given to the new order (an educated guess)

I know that when we practice a 3x40 match I just have the kids shoot 2 shots on each bull with 6 targets hung and go blocktime ... ORION has no trouble scoring this for us.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:27 pm

Joel,

These are not just rules for JO qualifiers. 3x40 may not be shot commonly but it is still a course of fire that needs to be considered.

My experience is that not all ranges can hang all six targets for smallbore. We need a rule for that situation. Just because you think you have it solved doesn't help those who need to walk downrange to hang the next set for the next position.
So what would be the best solution? Think man! Think!
;>)

Marcus

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:07 pm

Marcus wrote:So what would be the best solution? Think man! Think!
;>)
Marcus

I am! ... But I'm (we're all) confused! :-)

(USAS Clarification: USAS clubs and shooting organizations are welcome to continue to use the event order of Prone, Standing, Kneeling. Block time and the changing of positions throughout the time may not fit the range configuration of many clubs and could pose a safety hazard. USAS will conduct designated National matches in the following format; adequate advance notice will be given on the website and in the match bulletin.)

Maybe I'm not thinking enough, but HOW can running the event in the new (KPS) order pose a safety hazard and not fit a range configuration??? USAS needs to get off two horses and go with one, and since ISSF is KPS, then KPS is the horse we should all be riding.
(AND, the positions listed on P337 of the USAS rules should be in that order too)

In the old position order (PSK), my understanding was that a bit of extra time was given in prone to help with the sighting "necessary" The rules timeline are close to that.

However, why does USAS have 195 minutes for blocktime in 3x40 and only 186 minutes in a separate stage event?
Clearly unfair to staged target shooters.

If you tell me that the 9 minutes they give for target changeover make the difference, then I'll say that the folks divvying up the time do (did?) not understand the event ... I think they made a mistake.

Lets work backwards in the NEW order and give:
2min/shot standing = 80 minutes ......... 106 minutes remaining
1min/shot prone = 40 minutes ............. 66 minutes remaining
1-1/2min/shot kneeling = 60 minutes ... 6 minutes remaining

So, lets toss the extra 6 minutes into the 1st position:
Kneeling - 66 minutes ... 33 minutes per stage (current 31)
Prone - 40 minutes ... ... 20 minutes per stage (just as fast as NRA)(current 25, way too much I think, but may be from PSK mentality)
Standing - 80 minutes ... 40 minutes per stage (current 37)
WITH 3 min prep per stage and I think this is reasonable.
(These are times per position that most juniors have been comfortable with for at least 10 years in 3-P Air competitions)

If you want to toss in an extra 5 min per stage for sighters, I'm sure you won't get many complaints, but I don't think it's necessary.

So ... there's engineer-think for ya.