Has anyone here STILL uses a pre-late 1950s FP to compete in a sanctioned match (PTO, state, or national...)? That usually include: Hämmerli 33, 100-103; Isch 1; Bühag Zentrum 2; Anschütz Record; МЦ 1-2, 2-3. At the recent (2013) European Championship, I saw one junior used a Zentrum 2.
If you still do, what is your reason?
"Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
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"Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
Last edited by conradin on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Ancient pistol for FP competition.
The way you put your question confuses me a bit in your use of verb tenses.conradin wrote:Has anyone here use a pre-late 1950s FP
If it is phrased "Has anyone here USED a ............" my answer will be yes.
Is you put it as "DOES anyone here use a.............." my answer is no.
Which applies?
I saw lots of hand me downs in the 2013 European junior championship, they were all Toz-35 and МЦ 55; only a few used the Morini CM84E (I presume they were not CM80).
But shockingly I find one junior used a Zentrum 2. I have to study the picture carefully. The Zentrum 2 has a distinctive looking trigger guard that also acts as a lever for opening the falling block receiver and exposes the breech. Too bad there is no picture showing him opening up the receiver to load or eject so that I can see if he uses\d the trigger guard as the lever. If there were a picture of that, then I am 100% sure it was a Zentrum 2.
Of course that particular junior could have used a post 1959 production, but nevertheless it was an old design dated back to 1935 with no modification.
Zentrum 2 was only sold in Germany and Switzerland. So finding one in the hands of an Eastern European junior I was not surprised.
But shockingly I find one junior used a Zentrum 2. I have to study the picture carefully. The Zentrum 2 has a distinctive looking trigger guard that also acts as a lever for opening the falling block receiver and exposes the breech. Too bad there is no picture showing him opening up the receiver to load or eject so that I can see if he uses\d the trigger guard as the lever. If there were a picture of that, then I am 100% sure it was a Zentrum 2.
Of course that particular junior could have used a post 1959 production, but nevertheless it was an old design dated back to 1935 with no modification.
Zentrum 2 was only sold in Germany and Switzerland. So finding one in the hands of an Eastern European junior I was not surprised.
Re: "Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
Yep. Hammerli 100 with an octagonal barrel. Original sales receipt says it was sold in 1949.conradin wrote:... anyone here STILL uses a pre-late 1950s FP to compete in a sanctioned match (PTO, state, or national...)?
If you still do, what is your reason?
Why? Well, because that's what I've got, and because it works quite well.
I'm kind of worried something will break some day but so far that hasn't happened.
Re: "Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
Fantastic. Did the receipt say "Olympia" or "100"? If it was sold in 1949 it should be a 33, not a 100. Although it is just a model name change, everything is the same.jr wrote:[
Yep. Hammerli 100 with an octagonal barrel. Original sales receipt says it was sold in 1949.
Why? Well, because that's what I've got, and because it works quite well.
I'm kind of worried something will break some day but so far that hasn't happened.
Re: "Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
Well, I stand corrected - Conradin knows this stuff well, it appears.conradin wrote:Fantastic. Did the receipt say "Olympia" or "100"? If it was sold in 1949 it should be a 33, not a 100. Although it is just a model name change, everything is the same.jr wrote:[
Yep. Hammerli 100 with an octagonal barrel. Original sales receipt says it was sold in 1949.
Why? Well, because that's what I've got, and because it works quite well.
I'm kind of worried something will break some day but so far that hasn't happened.
I dug up the receipt (they say shooting free pistol is a challenge, well how about finding stuff in my house!), and anyway, it wasn't sold in '49 - I don't know why I thought it was '49, maybe something else happened then that I was supposed to remember and now I've gotten that event confused with '52.
But anyway, there is an original, factory target for the pistol showing a 10-shot group at 50m - the group is 0.7". Pretty impressive. It's dated 15.9.52. The test target itself has the gun's serial number and a checkbox indicating "Matchp" (for Matchpistole); there are other (unchecked) boxes that are marked "Olympiap", "Stutzer", and "Gewehr", so I guess the factory used the same test target blanks for a variety of arms (there is also a set of checkboxes marked "Distanz 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 300"; this one is marked "50", of course.
The sales receipt, which is marked Lieferschein / Bulletin de Livraison, with "Hämmerli Jagd- und Sportwaffenfabrik AG / Fabrique d'Armes pour la chasse et le sport S.A., Lenzburg, Schweiz / Switzerland", also doesn't specifically state the model number - it just says "1 Hämmerli Matchpistole Kal .22 long rifle" followed by its serial number (which is in the low/mid 1000's). It's dated 13.10.52.
These pistols have the customary Olympic rings on them; this particular one has "London 1948" on it.
An interesting side note: the top hit for my Google search of "Lenzburg" + "Hammerli" revealed that the highest rated restaurant in Lenzburg, Switzerland according to Tripadvisor is a place called "Hammerli Palace". I will be sure to go eat there someday... :)
How many Olympic rings (ie. Olympic participation has been engraved?)
33 has none or 1 (1948)
100 has 1 or 2 (1948, 1952)
101-103 has 3 (1948, 1952, 1956)
If you have four that is 104-107, the fourth one being 1964.
If it was sold in the USA then it will only be called Olympia with no model number. Stolzer usually sold them.
Low serial number indicates it is a new model number, hence what you have is not a 33, but a 100. It is rare to have a 1948 rings 100, so it must be very early. Remember, manufacturing date has nothing to do with selling date.
For the record I have a 100, with two Olympic rings. Spare parts are a nightmare. It has been with Mr. Marent for almost a year. I do have quite a bit of spare parts, but unfortunately not the ones that are most crucial and causes most headache: the 7 sears trigger system along with the screws. If you are careful with your dry fire, and don't mess with the setting too much, it is unlikely your pistol will ever have any problems. Just clean it every time you are done with it after a long match.
I have the original workshop manual for the 33 and the 100; but I don't think it really matters for you even if your pistol breaks down. It is almost for sure that a lot of parts will have to be hand made.
If you buy this pistol in the USA, all you would be told is that it is the "Olympic model". The name remains the same from 33-107.
The *real* spartan free pistol that is used for world class competitions are the 33, 100, 101 and 104 and IIRC 106. The rest of them are customized either for fun, plinking, local competition, or be stuck inside a glass display case. Such as extensive engraving, fancy grip, etc. They were never meant to be fired.
I am not a great shooter, but I love the history of the sport.
33 has none or 1 (1948)
100 has 1 or 2 (1948, 1952)
101-103 has 3 (1948, 1952, 1956)
If you have four that is 104-107, the fourth one being 1964.
If it was sold in the USA then it will only be called Olympia with no model number. Stolzer usually sold them.
Low serial number indicates it is a new model number, hence what you have is not a 33, but a 100. It is rare to have a 1948 rings 100, so it must be very early. Remember, manufacturing date has nothing to do with selling date.
For the record I have a 100, with two Olympic rings. Spare parts are a nightmare. It has been with Mr. Marent for almost a year. I do have quite a bit of spare parts, but unfortunately not the ones that are most crucial and causes most headache: the 7 sears trigger system along with the screws. If you are careful with your dry fire, and don't mess with the setting too much, it is unlikely your pistol will ever have any problems. Just clean it every time you are done with it after a long match.
I have the original workshop manual for the 33 and the 100; but I don't think it really matters for you even if your pistol breaks down. It is almost for sure that a lot of parts will have to be hand made.
If you buy this pistol in the USA, all you would be told is that it is the "Olympic model". The name remains the same from 33-107.
The *real* spartan free pistol that is used for world class competitions are the 33, 100, 101 and 104 and IIRC 106. The rest of them are customized either for fun, plinking, local competition, or be stuck inside a glass display case. Such as extensive engraving, fancy grip, etc. They were never meant to be fired.
I am not a great shooter, but I love the history of the sport.
Updating this thread - I posted the results of this pistol/ammo test elsewhere but it seems relevant here as well, since this is the free pistol described above.
This is an octagon barrel Hammerli Model 100 from 1952 or before. It still shoots really well. I recently did some 10-shot group tests with 7 different kinds of ammo (no particular reason for selecting these 7 kinds of ammo other than they were the 7 kinds of non-high-velocity 22 ammo that I happened to have sitting around).
Results:
(.7") Eley Edge
(.7") Eley Target
(.75") Wolf Match Target
(.75") CCI Quiet 40gr
(.8") Gemtech subsonic 42gr
(1.2") Eley Tenex
(1.4") Eley Sport
All the above were 10-shot groups at 50' with the pistol rested on sandbags. Indoors. About 50ºF (10ºC).
It's worth noting that I am by no means a great shot (I know the sandbags were doing most of the work, but I think I have an inconsistent and somewhat blurry sight picture that probably opened the groups somewhat). Since Russ isn't here anymore, let's just call me a "club-level competitor with no particular aspirations" and leave it at that.
All the different ammo I tested more-or-less printed on the same spot on the target (so you really could interchange ammo in a match without any real loss in point of impact since the center of each group varied by less than .5" among 6 out of the 7 the types of ammo I tested). The CCI Quiet was the outlier with its group about an inch away from the others.
One observation - the Eley Tenex had a nice, tight 8-hole group of about .6" but with a flyer out to the right and another one out to the left. Given that ammo's legendary performance, it's likely that the flyers were my fault and not the gun or the ammo.
This is an octagon barrel Hammerli Model 100 from 1952 or before. It still shoots really well. I recently did some 10-shot group tests with 7 different kinds of ammo (no particular reason for selecting these 7 kinds of ammo other than they were the 7 kinds of non-high-velocity 22 ammo that I happened to have sitting around).
Results:
(.7") Eley Edge
(.7") Eley Target
(.75") Wolf Match Target
(.75") CCI Quiet 40gr
(.8") Gemtech subsonic 42gr
(1.2") Eley Tenex
(1.4") Eley Sport
All the above were 10-shot groups at 50' with the pistol rested on sandbags. Indoors. About 50ºF (10ºC).
It's worth noting that I am by no means a great shot (I know the sandbags were doing most of the work, but I think I have an inconsistent and somewhat blurry sight picture that probably opened the groups somewhat). Since Russ isn't here anymore, let's just call me a "club-level competitor with no particular aspirations" and leave it at that.
All the different ammo I tested more-or-less printed on the same spot on the target (so you really could interchange ammo in a match without any real loss in point of impact since the center of each group varied by less than .5" among 6 out of the 7 the types of ammo I tested). The CCI Quiet was the outlier with its group about an inch away from the others.
One observation - the Eley Tenex had a nice, tight 8-hole group of about .6" but with a flyer out to the right and another one out to the left. Given that ammo's legendary performance, it's likely that the flyers were my fault and not the gun or the ammo.
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Ulrich Eichstädt
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:06 am
- Location: Dortmund
Re: "Ancient" pistols for FP competition.
In fact the restaurant (haven't been there yet) is in the very same buildings of the old Hämmerli factory in Lenzburg, before they moved to Neuhausen in 2000. Ferdinand Hediger, the former Hämmerli CEO (1988-1995), told me that two weeks ago.jr wrote: that the highest rated restaurant in Lenzburg, Switzerland according to Tripadvisor is a place called "Hammerli Palace". I will be sure to go eat there someday... :)
