spotting scopes

[pcw]

I am hoping the collective can give me a tutorial in spotting scopes.

I have two kids who are both starting into winter biathlon and one thing I think would help is a spotting scope. All our live practice will be at 50 meters, so that would be the primary distance. We already have too many hobbies, so funds for all of them are rather limited. A spotting scope seems like a worth while investment because it could also be used for things like bird watching and spying on our neighbors. I have been perusing my Champions Choice catalog and I'm not sure what I'm seeing.
The CC scopes seem affordable, but with some of the others being so much more expensive, I wonder what I'm missing. I think the most confusing is the mounts to the stand. What is a zoom mount? Will most spotting scopes mount to camera tripods (we have one)? It looks like the shooting specific stands allow you to place them much closer to the shooter, but that doesn't seem necessary for our needs.

Cheers, Philip

[DavePat]

I'm at the range 3-4 times a week shooting smallbore at 50 yds. This is what I would get.

1. http://www.championshooters.com/index.p ... Itemid=111

Get the 15-45X 65mm model

2. http://www.championshooters.com/index.p ... Itemid=111

Get the bipod stand with 1" rods and get it with the zoom head if you get the above scope.

3. http://www.creedmoorsports.com/shop/Pad ... d_Bag.html

The padded case will hold your stand and your scope

[dontshootcritters]

What ever brand you decide on make sure that you get an eye piece that is angled and maybe with adjustable magnification.ie 20-60 power.This makes a HUGE difference.I wouldn't be too concerned about spending big money here as most spotting scopes these days are perfectly fine and have good optics.
Kind regards

[mparker]

Check out the Alpen line of scopes. Inexpensive and fairly bright. I have the Model 745, 20-60 x 60.

[mtncwru]

+1 on the Konus scope, though I have the 80mm model. I had the opportunity to check out both the 65mm and the 80mm side by side, and found I liked the 80mm enough to make it worth the extra $70. I shoot out to 300 yards with my Swiss rifle, and found that I wanted the extra 15mm of objective lens; if it were just for 50 and 100 yard smallbore and snooping on my neighbors, I don't know that I would have spent the extra money. They all come with photo adapters, too, so you can hook your SLR camera directly onto the scope, for photographing birds, and for imitating Jimmy Stewart in Hitchcock movies. Sadly the wheelchair is not included.

Most any scope on the market today is threaded for a camera tripod. For standing that works fine, but for prone you will not be able to get the camera tripod low enough, which is where the Freeland stands come in. Should you go that route, I would recommend a tripod over a bipod. The tripod will be more stable (less likely to blow over) in the wind. I also found that a quick-detach plate was a worthwhile investment, so I don't have to unscrew my scope all the time (on the Freeland stands it's a bit of a pain). I use this one.

Hope this helps. Good luck with biathlon!

[pcw]

Thanks for the replies.

So it sounds like out to 50 meters a 15-45x scope should do the job. I'm sure having a larger objective lens would be nice. I noticed that the Kowas come without an eye piece and that makes me wonder if the other scopes have replaceable eye pieces.

I'm still wondering what is the difference between the the swivel and the zoom mounts that Champions Choice sells. It appears that the zoom mount has different adjustment screws to where you could use the screws to drop from one target to a lower one and maybe the swivel mount requires loosening the whole mount to change position.

mtncwru, that quick release looks slick, I like it.

[conradin]

Conus.

[DavePat]

Thanks for the replies.

So it sounds like out to 50 meters a 15-45x scope should do the job. I'm sure having a larger objective lens would be nice. I noticed that the Kowas come without an eye piece and that makes me wonder if the other scopes have replaceable eye pieces.

The Konus scopes have replaceable eyepieces

I'm still wondering what is the difference between the the swivel and the zoom mounts that Champions Choice sells. It appears that the zoom mount has different adjustment screws to where you could use the screws to drop from one target to a lower one and maybe the swivel mount requires loosening the whole mount to change position.

The swivel head is for scopes that do not have a rotating adjustment band (older scopes) but can also be used with scopes that have a rotating adjustment band.

The zoom head can be used with scopes with a rotating scope adjustment band (like the Konus)

[/b]

[bluetentacle]

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned eye relief. This is probably the most important criterion in selecting a scope suitable for position shooting. Sufficient eye relief makes it easier to position the scope so that you can observe the mirage without lifting your head from the cheekpiece.

Variable magnification is not important for position shooting. In fact it can be a detriment, as variable power eyepieces tend to have short eye relief. Make sure that you select an eyepiece that is specifically labeled "LER" or "Long Eye Relief". These are typically fixed power at 25x or 27x.

[mtncwru]

I'm surprised that no one's mentioned eye relief. This is probably the most important criterion in selecting a scope suitable for position shooting...
...Make sure that you select an eyepiece that is specifically labeled "LER" or "Long Eye Relief". These are typically fixed power at 25x or 27x.

I think no one mentioned eye relief because he specifically asked for a budget scope. I'm not aware of any LER scopes other than Kowa, and those are in the $750-1000 range. Is the glass better? Yes. Is the long eye relief very nice to have? Absolutely. Is it worth the 400% markup over a Konus? I didn't think so, and that's after using a Kowa all week at the Western Wildcat 6400 this year.

If there IS a cheaper option out there for an LER eyepiece I (and I suspect an awful lot of other people here) would love to hear it. Until then, I stand by my recommendation for a Konus for any smallbore shooter on a budget.

[Bowman26]

For the money the Konus is hard to beat especially if you are only looking at 50m. I have used a friends 80mm model in the past and it did well out to 300 yards which was the farthest I tried. The eye relief is short as mentioned but options for long eye relief are limited as also mentioned.

I have a Kowa 821M with a 27x LER eyepiece and it is the cat's ass when it comes to spotting scopes but very pricey. I shoot out to 600+ yards though so good glass is a must.

Don't worry about how high the mag goes 60x is to much in most cases and you will find 25-30x to be perfect IMO. With that in mind you might have other options that would suit your needs at your price point of below. Celestron makes some nice budget minded scopes as well.

Go with the angled eyepiece without question. Depending on how you intend to use the scope (separate spotter or shooter spotting for themselves) will determine the best stand or tripod to get. You can find good deals on nice Boogan Manfrotto tripods used on ebay if someone else will be spotting they aren't going to work if you are spotting for yourself where you will need the pole type stand.

[BrianJ]

Go on Ebay and get an older used B&L or Unertl, 20x or up with a good Freeland tri or bipod for reasonable money.

bjm

[Levergun59]

Brian,
50 yards is a no brainer in Biathlon. You don't need anything more than a Bushnell or a comparable cheap scope. What you do need is a scope stand with a single pole and a spike for anchoring it in the snow. Tripods are too wide and are often bumped by their skis during sight in, causing you to reposition the scope. You have to lean in to the tripod to get a good look as your skis are outside the tripod. Pain. You can always find single pole scope stands used for under $50.00 and new for under $100. When they compete, you use the scope for wind changes and relay the sight changes to the kids as they come in to shoot. Rig is more than adequate for indoor 25 yd rimfire 3p.
Chris

[conradin]

Dear Philip, my personal experience is that the more powerful the scope the better. I originally use the cheap Chinese made one for 10M from Champions Choice, it is OK. Then I get the bigger version, which make shooting 50M possible, and it helps a bit more for the 10M. But both of them have limited magnification option, so it is hard to tell (in my case, 50M) certain difficult calls. Once I changed to a powerful Conus, all my problems were solved. Granted using it for 10M air pistol seemed to be overkill, but I never regretted the decision for the investment because now I have a scope that is suitable for everything from 10M to 200M (which is the maximum distance of the range of my club). Besides, something that powerful can help me determine a close call on 10M, without using an eagle eye later. It is more powerful than an eagle eye.

[BrianJ]

Chris,

Freelands mounted on a 5/8" rod as long as you needed. Use it and the saddle. I had them in both aluminum and steel.

bjm

[pcw]

You guys are very helpful.

I looked on ebay after you suggested it and I was overwhelmed by all the scopes listed. So I went to the buy it now listings and saw that B&L, Bushnell, Konus and a few other brands have 15-45x scopes for 160-200 bucks. Then it starts getting expensive. There were a few that were cheaper by Tasco and Celestron and then there were the really cheap ones.

I have never been one who has to have the nicest tools, but then again I have bought inexpensive things because I wasn't ready to commit only to buy the better tools after a year or two of fighting with the cheep ones. No money saved that way. The Konus or the Alpen seem like solid values. I can save 20 bucks over Champions Choice if I buy it from an internet camera shop, but I not sure if it's worth the 20 bucks if I have a problem and have to deal with an numbskull.

Thanks Levergun for the point about kickng the stand with skis. Can you clue me in about a single pole stand for 100 bucks? By the way both my kids went to biathlon camp this summer, the young one in VT and the other in Lake Placid. We then went to the national rollerski biathlon championship in VT. Those folks were amazing on the rollerskis! The world cup racers that taught at the camps came over after the race and talked to my kids and they really enjoyed that.

Cheers, Philip

[DavePat]

If you don't need or want the tripod or bipod legs how bout a Freeland spike that fits the end of a standard scope stand rod ?

http://www.championshooters.com/index.p ... Itemid=111

[Levergun59]

Dave, the spike works very well when there is 10" of snow, but you need the legs if you are practicing rifle cause there is no snow. Just ask us Wisconsinites the last two years. You only want 2 legs on your stand so you can shoot and look without moving your skis.
Phillip, I have a cheap Bushnell fixed power that sits on a clamped length of aluminum in my pistol box. We shoot 50 yds and 22 bulletholes are easily visible. No problems for 50 meters either. Buy a scopestand and cheap scope for each kid. Spend your money on rifles, skis and gas. Biathlon is an expensive sport as you probably know, and the fastest skier usually wins despite penalty laps. Concentrate on the conditioning and skiing. It takes years to go really fast on skis. My kid is a really good 3P shooter but not yet a really strong skier. He can go 20/20 in the prone and standing targets and still get whupped.lol. Maybe that will show you where the emphasis should be.
Good luck. Chris