I believe it!

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:26 pm

Gerard, plenty of those out there too. *Gun.de or *Gun.ch has plenty. But due to the recent change of the German law in pistols, you have to figure out how to have the seller ship to you. Although I have no problem getting my stuff directly from *gun.de. You just need to be aware of which shipper you use, and how you word it. The worst case scenario is to have the person drive across the border in another EU country to ship it out.

Give it a try. In fact there is a FWB102 available right now under "Buy it now". Most seller will say no international sales, but usually you can talk to them to change their minds. I have yet to encounter someone not change their minds, but usually that requires you to give them information on how to ship it, what customs form to take and how to fill it, and of course, extra compensation. Be prepared to use wire transfer most of the time, so make sure you ask them for all the bank info. IBAN/SWIFT/ that kind of thing, etc.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:45 pm

As I said (oh BOY is this one getting off topic!), I've no interest in a FWB102. As for *gun.de or *gun.ch - tried those, got nothing. Tried also gun.de and gun.ch. Also nothing, except with gun.ch a blue background with only this text, no links:
Here is a new website web691l
And this means what? Tried http://www.web691l.ch/ and got 'not found'. Am I supposed to be guessing what to put where the * is in your examples? Is this a funny thing perhaps, a little guessing game with no answers? airgun.de gets nothing. airgun.ch gets a redirect to some Glock-looking nonsense.

Okay, enough off-topic Conradin, please.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:02 pm

Heh, heh. I see JimE has a FWB103 in the Classifieds here.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 6:36 pm

As me old muther used to say, Rover, yer a fargin' bastage. There I go, ad hominemin' away!

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:12 pm

Gerard, I just want to give you an example that SSP is widely available in Egun.de or Egun.ch. I think the pistols that you want to purchase can be found in this website. I don't know the FWB pre-100 series are not SSP.

Anyway, for the type of pistols you are looking for, I presume these are the ones, some are good, some are of poor quality:

Gamo Falcon
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4518241
Predom Luczmik 1970
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4506029
Record 1
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4505721
Record 77
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4488182
Slavia TEX 086
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4513016
Gamo Falcon
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4518241
Weihrauch HW45
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4505893
Weihrauch HW70
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4517709

The Weihrauch and the Predom Luczmik are probably the good ones. The latter is a Polish Copy of a Walther.

FWB 100
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4519281
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4516032
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4510365
FWB 102
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4518127
FWB 103
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4498513
Walther LPM-1
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4497740
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4515820
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4516792

Finally, Baikal IJ 53M
http://www.egun.de/market/item.php?id=4503756

Diana is a dime a dozen.

There is neither Webley and Scott, nor K58, I am sure if you are patient enough they will show up. Did I get this right?

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:16 pm

Gerard, Pilk threatened to remove me from the forum for language like that (he even censored my posts a couple of times). But coming from an old Marine, it's pretty mild. You guys have not even begun to get me started, but I bet Perkins, Zurek, Groppi, or Alaway (who know me) would have a word on the subject.

Back to the question: Do you think recoil reducers are beneficial?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:37 pm

Rover; My tongue was firmly in my cheek, an acknowledgement of your jest regarding the 103. No insult intended.

Conradin; I'm genuinely confused by your sometimes-obtuseness. YES, the FWB 100, 102, and 103 are SSP pistols! GOSH DARN IT ALL what is wrong with your reading glasses!

As for all that springer junk you're throwing out there, all I can say is the same as I said in a PM last week in our LENGTHY dialogue off-forum. Namely that you must have a whole lot of time to waste. Relevance?

I'm not about to wire transfer over $1,000 to an overseas seller for a used pistol. Thanks anyway, and thanks also for spelling Eguns without spelling it *guns. That was confusing. I'll look around, but as I know nothing whatsoever about European laws around airgun shipping, and as I can't be assured that such a purchase would arrive in Vancouver, Canada, ever, I will not pursuing a purchase there. My K12 is paid for, buying directly from the owner of WesternMarksman.ca who I've shot alongside at a few competitions. I've bought Webley pistols (my toys - fun but not for serious target shooting) from individuals locally with one exception - the Junior was from a highly trusted seller in Ontario. Bought my K10 from WesternMarksman. I tend to play it safe when it comes to purchasing such things. I've been ripped off with lower value purchases from international sellers, mostly based in the US and once in China, and between that and various horror stories I've read regarding airgun purchases from distant sellers I'll be continuing to play it safe, and not buy from a German or other European seller.

But again - what has any of this to do with the thread subject, Conradin? You frequently insist on these side-tracks. You have said that you see your role as being in part a troll. I begin to agree with you on that evaluation.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:03 pm

I never have any problem from Egun, ever. Baikal, FWB and the Walther are not junk, and some of the springer I listed is better than the Webley.
Anyway, I think this entire topic is about absorber. All I have to say is, there is no need to have an absorber in air guns.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:09 pm

Gerard, I knew that. Just giving a little back.

BTW I love this quote by Eleanor Roosevelt (wife of the President).

“The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!”

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:01 pm

Oh, and do I think recoil reducers are effective? Don't know. Haven't used one so far. I expect it'll take a little while to get used to the K12 and then I'll form an opinion on the matter I suppose. From what I've heard the absorption level is adjustable. Probably to pair its settings with the velocity setting. So that might be a bit of a learning curve.

But if you're asking for a layperson's opinion on the physics of air pistol action/reaction, my guess on it is that the pistol begins a slight backwards and upwards transit at the instant the pellet begins its motion forwards. That's pretty basic elementary school physics. Action along any vector results in equal and opposite reaction in the opposite direction. As such, it would seem likely that before the pellet has left the muzzle, at whatever velocity, the barrel will have changed position relative to the target. Most likely the majority of this change in position will be upwards, owing to the location of the hand below the barrel which makes for an asymmetrical fulcrum around which the pistol must rotate in reaction to the small mass of the pellet being pushed forwards.

How to quantify this? I've no idea, I'm not running a physics test lab. But I have run bench tests with my K10 firmly clamped to a very heavy bench, and have watched groups open out in diameter with that increase. So it's apparent that considerable force is acting upon the barrel, causing it to vibrate more at higher velocities. While this vibration would not in itself be prevented by a recoil absorber, it stands to reason that such force with the offset inherent in basic pistol geometry (lever above fulcrum with force travelling along the lever's length) could potentially be countered by the travel in the opposite direction of the projectile at precisely the correct moment, neutralizing the upward motion and resulting in a 'dead' gun. This would reduce error sources to strictly the user.

I have seen this sort of debate crop up many, many times in forums, and it seems there are always two camps; those who say the pellet has left the barrel before the barrel moves upwards and those who say it has not. I've even seen the odd link to video clips supposedly demonstrating either side. So far none of these clips has actually demonstrated any such thing. They're just slow motion videos of guns going off, moving a lot, and a bullet coming out at some point during that movement.

But I did try a little experiment. Nothing formal, and my methodology won't stand significant scrutiny. But before deciding to get the K12 (as the trigger alone wasn't quite, at the time, moving me to spend the money) I wanted to check how my K10 shot comparing a neutral, minimally supported shot and a firmly held in the hand shot. So I rigged a little set of blocks on one end of my 250 pound or so workbench in which the cylinder could lay. Then I put a putty block at the other end, about 6 feet away with a piece of paper stuck to it. Then I fired a series of shots while holding the grip firmly such that the cylinder was lying flat on the blocks. Then I fired a series on the same blocks, but just holding the trigger and my thumb opposite it on the grip and squeezing, maintaining the flatness of the cylinder on the blocks but allowing the pistol to jump, if it might.

My padding blocks were all firmly clamped in several directions - to each other and to the bench. I pressed the trigger guard lightly against the bench edge on every shot. As the cylinder is, well, cylindrical, I couldn't easily isolate rotation, so I was attempting to hold the pistol as vertically as possible, minimizing any movement between shots. I ran several of these test groups, 5 shots per hole, and this one was showed the least errors. The group on the left is the light rested hold, the group on the right is holding the cylinder against the bottom block with a finger on the front end and thumb on the back end, pressing firmly downwards. There was no compression in the hardwood blocks - I tested this prior to loading by inserting a knitting needle into the muzzle for extra length to view and pressing downwards on the cylinder in the same way. No motion at the end of the knitting needle. No contact was made with the barrel during any test.

The 5-shot group on the right, pressing firmly on the cylinder, shows one anomalous shot low and right. The other 4 shots are in the same 4.5mm hole. The 5-shot group on the left is free of errors, and the hole measures an average of 4.6mm. The lines are drawn on after the testing, and are parallel to the bench surface. The measured height difference between group centres is about 1.1mm, the higher group being the unsupported one.

So this series of tests seemed to demonstrate that the pistol is jumping upwards while the pellets were still inside the barrel. Is this conclusive? Of course not, it's an informal, impromptu test I put together to help in making a decision as to whether it was possible that a recoil absorber might offer some measurable benefit over the 3 barrel ports and the compensator of the K10. My personal conclusion from these tests, whose results were very consistent, was that the higher percentage of my called 'good' shots which were actually above centre on target seem to be the direct result of recoil in the K10. So putting this together with the increasing number of reports that the K12's trigger is a vast improvement, my decision was made and I contacted the Pardini dealer.

Rover · Post by **Rover** » Sat Aug 03, 2013 9:20 pm

I'm happy to see you're taking my advice, "Test 'em for yourself."

Since I've seen one pellet enlarge a thirty shot group, I'm hoping you did more than one test. I'm certain that a gun is moving while the projectile is still in the barrel: easily shown by changing bullet weights, though I think it doesn't matter with an AP.

I'm sure you'll let me know. Anyway, things like this are what we're hoping to uncover in this post.

Peter B · Post by **Peter B** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:38 am

Like golfers always talking about the new club theres always something to sell the new gun. I shot my best score with a IZH and only stopped using it do to tendenitus issues. Been using a Morini the past few years and even though I think it is a far better I still havn't better my best. I belive we can gane more by learning to keep calm in match conditions than any recoil reduction system could ever gane us. Funny how nobody wants to talk about this. If they develope a system that can take the dance out of my front sight to the rythum of my hart beat after a strings of tens I might buy in.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:04 am

Beta blockers do that. That's why they're banned in competition. I wonder if untreated clinical depression would also allow for more consistent shooting? If one were feeling dark enough perhaps no string of 10s would matter at all.

----------------------

And yeah, I shoot similar scores with my Baikal 46m. Usually within a point or two. But I come away from 60 formal shots plus 20 or so warm-ups feeling a lot more tired, especially my shoulder where I tore something two years ago. The shoulder feels just fine with the lighter pistol with more weight towards the grip. Seems not to be a trivial difference when functionality of the body is on the line. I made my 46m as light as I could, even unscrewing the cylinder and mounting it on my lathe and reducing the wall thickness selectively. With that and a much reduced cocking lever and front sight block cut in half and a few other modifications, it's still about 68grams heavier than my K10, with too much of that extra mass being too far forward, and according to Pardini's website the K12 is similar to the K10 in weight so no change there. At 51 with joints starting to complain some I've no intention of going back to the heavier pistol for full time use. Especially considering the relatively primitive trigger.

Rover; I will, as you say, let you and anyone interested in my non-world-class opinion of the Pardini absorber once I've given it a try. I'll even run a series of bench tests just like I did with the K10. And yes, I shot 5 series of 10 shots like the one posted above, and the results were all similar - the pistol flips up about 1mm at 6ft when the cylinder is not held down.

renzo · Post by **renzo** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:56 am

Gerard wrote:Beta blockers do that. That's why they're banned in competition. I wonder if untreated clinical depression would also allow for more consistent shooting? If one were feeling dark enough perhaps no string of 10s would matter at all.

Been there, seen it.

Don't bother, if you're so darkly depressed as to be unaffected by a long string of 10's, you won't have had the drive to shoot them in the first place, because - as you've said - it doesn't matter at all...........................

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:38 pm

Yeah, kinda makes sense renzo. Sorry to hear you've had an opportunity to 'try' this.

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:31 pm

Gerard, I know you are joking, but clinical depression is a serious illness. I have friends who either successfully or unsuccessfully committed suicide. My now former roommate almost made it by digesting over 50 of our sleeping pills all at once and only a chance discovery by someone who saw him passed out on a sidewalk saved him.
The last thing they have in their mind is target shooting, and usually the first thing in their mind is shooting a bullet into their own brains. It is a dark dark world for them, and I doubt they will trade in a healthy mental condition with strings of Xs.

And yes, someone who was so close to me whom I consider her my elder sister committed suicide because of that. I was the last person to see her alive, they found her in the middle of a southern New Mexico desert road. Gun. She was a former motorcycle racing champion in the women division. Nobody, including athlete, is immune to this horrible disease, and having it does not mean you will perform better.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 8:41 pm

I wasn't joking Conradin, I was pondering aloud. Of course severely depressed people sometimes suicide. But your tales of woe, personal or second hand, have nothing whatsoever to do with this topic. Please try to stay on topic. We all know people suffering mental illnesses. I certainly have too much experience in this area, but feel no need to start spelling out the sad details in a shooting forum.

Clintw · Post by **Clintw** » Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:25 pm

I've found the recoil absorber on a LP-10 to be beneficial in allowing me to better focus on the front sight through the shot process. Occasionally, the recoil absorber "gets sticky" and doesn't move freely to the rear or needs to be adjusted for different pellet weights. The recoil and flip, when the absorber is not properly adjusted, is surprisingly noticeable although I don't see any shot placement difference. The real difference for me is on subsequent shots if I get distracted or anticipate front sight flip.

The LP10 recoil absorber is easy to adjust for different pellet weights and works well for me.

Clint

"Typing less and shooting more"