For Eric and other experts, my question is in regards to how you set up your butt plate with respect to the vertical axis. Do you keep it straight on the carrier post or do you rotate it externally (to the right) so as to turn the face into the slope of the deltoid? or do you rotate it internally (to the left) so as perhaps to turn the face of the butt plate into the traps?
Related to this would also be where you place it relative to the mid line of your body. Do you have the butt plate out toward the crease that the deltoid makes with the traps? Or do you push the butt plate in closer to the neck?
I sure appreciate your insights in advance.
Best,
Mike
Another question for Eric Uptagrafft and the pro prones.
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Eric,
I have a somewhat related question, this one about the hook. Do you have yours in-line with the butt, or angled outwards? Obviously this is a personal thing, as build, buttplacement, and hook shape vary.
Also, am I right in thinking that part of your loading routine is to raise the butt until the hook contacts, to ensure it goes back into the same place?
thank you.
Tim
I have a somewhat related question, this one about the hook. Do you have yours in-line with the butt, or angled outwards? Obviously this is a personal thing, as build, buttplacement, and hook shape vary.
Also, am I right in thinking that part of your loading routine is to raise the butt until the hook contacts, to ensure it goes back into the same place?
thank you.
Tim
Hi Eric,
Does that mean the upper part of the BP turn towards your neck, while the lower part is points outward away from your body, assuming as if there is a vertical axis going through the BP?
I am at the very beginning stage of learning how to hold a rifle. And I find it difficult to find a very specific place against which I can consistently put BP press.
Does that mean the upper part of the BP turn towards your neck, while the lower part is points outward away from your body, assuming as if there is a vertical axis going through the BP?
I am at the very beginning stage of learning how to hold a rifle. And I find it difficult to find a very specific place against which I can consistently put BP press.
Conrandin,
I read it that Eric has the top of the buttplate turned out further to the right( i.e. away from his body) than the bottom. Although I did at first think he meant that the butt had been rotated away from the bore line.
I'm not sure how relevant this information is to you. Eric is discussing the position/orientation of the buttplate in the prone position, using a Free rifle (in his case an Anschutz 1813/1913 stock with a 1980s 4760 butt). If I remember right you are shooting standing only, with a much more basic rifle. The placement of the butt is different between the two positions, and also a Free rifle like Eric's will allow a much greater range of adjustment (and so possibility for a good fit) than your rifle.
You may need to specify your needs to get an accurate answer.
I read it that Eric has the top of the buttplate turned out further to the right( i.e. away from his body) than the bottom. Although I did at first think he meant that the butt had been rotated away from the bore line.
I'm not sure how relevant this information is to you. Eric is discussing the position/orientation of the buttplate in the prone position, using a Free rifle (in his case an Anschutz 1813/1913 stock with a 1980s 4760 butt). If I remember right you are shooting standing only, with a much more basic rifle. The placement of the butt is different between the two positions, and also a Free rifle like Eric's will allow a much greater range of adjustment (and so possibility for a good fit) than your rifle.
You may need to specify your needs to get an accurate answer.
The rules are very different between what is allowed for Free Rifle (or whatever they call it now) and Air, although they are closer than they were 20 years ago when i stopped shooting 3P. On the AR it is only allowed to move the butt plate up and down vertically, and to rotate it around an axis that is Normal (i.e at 90 degrees) to the bore axis. So effectively you can turn the plate "in" so that it will make better contact with the shoulder area. On the Free Rifle you can also rotate the butt plate around an axis that is parallel to the bore axis. This allows you to have the plate at the optimum angle in the shoulder, and also have the rifle canted to the optimum angle as well. The rotational adjustment is not such a problem in the standing position, but it is really important in the prone position. In prone there is really only one good angle for the butt plate in the shoulder, everything else is a big compromise. The rotation allows the butt to be positioned optimally, and then the rifle can effectively rotated around until it is also in the ideal position.
This is why the Ally stocks are so popular, they have a much wider range of adjustment available to get the position perfect. On reason I did not really use the AR as training for the standing part of 3P was that back then the AR used what was essentially the same as the Standard Rifle stock, which was very different feeling to the Free Rifle stock. I also shot with an Anschutz 1813 with the second generation style of adjustable butt plate (the first Anschutz one to also allow rotation of the plate around the "normal to the bore axis").
Alan
This is why the Ally stocks are so popular, they have a much wider range of adjustment available to get the position perfect. On reason I did not really use the AR as training for the standing part of 3P was that back then the AR used what was essentially the same as the Standard Rifle stock, which was very different feeling to the Free Rifle stock. I also shot with an Anschutz 1813 with the second generation style of adjustable butt plate (the first Anschutz one to also allow rotation of the plate around the "normal to the bore axis").
Alan
Eric, thanks for the reply to my post. If I may expand the question: With the butt plate that close to your neck, have you removed all the cant? Or do you not off-set the stock much and still cant the rifle?
And if I may further ask, it appears there are some similarities between your and Martynov position. I am assuming that shooters of your level talk to each other at the big meets. Is he canting his rifle much? It does not appear so in the pictures I see, but it is limited.
Thanks again for your response.
Mike
And if I may further ask, it appears there are some similarities between your and Martynov position. I am assuming that shooters of your level talk to each other at the big meets. Is he canting his rifle much? It does not appear so in the pictures I see, but it is limited.
Thanks again for your response.
Mike
M Bradley,
no Martynov does not cant his rifle. His position is also very different from Eric's. Firstly Martynov is about 4in shorter.
Martynov also uses a fairly uncommon variation prety much only seen amongst the Belarussian team: spine is very wide to the rifle (40-45 degrees), but his legs are turned in, the left is roughly parallel to the rifle, his right knee is drawn up very high almost touching his right elbow. His right shoulder is very high, and the butt is placed out on his deltoid muscle (the plate itslef looks very high, is offset to the left, and the hook is angled inwards). Despite only being about 5' 8", he has the butt extended a lot, and his left hand is almost at the end of the stock.
In comaprison Eric's looks to be fairly conventional: his back is straighter to the rifle (20-30 degrees?), his left leg is straight to his back. Eric's shoulders look more or less level. Eric has the butt extended, and his left hand is well forwards, but that's not unusual for a tall man.
no Martynov does not cant his rifle. His position is also very different from Eric's. Firstly Martynov is about 4in shorter.
Martynov also uses a fairly uncommon variation prety much only seen amongst the Belarussian team: spine is very wide to the rifle (40-45 degrees), but his legs are turned in, the left is roughly parallel to the rifle, his right knee is drawn up very high almost touching his right elbow. His right shoulder is very high, and the butt is placed out on his deltoid muscle (the plate itslef looks very high, is offset to the left, and the hook is angled inwards). Despite only being about 5' 8", he has the butt extended a lot, and his left hand is almost at the end of the stock.
In comaprison Eric's looks to be fairly conventional: his back is straighter to the rifle (20-30 degrees?), his left leg is straight to his back. Eric's shoulders look more or less level. Eric has the butt extended, and his left hand is well forwards, but that's not unusual for a tall man.
Thanks Eric and Tim.
Tim, I did notice that Martynov's shifts his legs to the right in the pictures in Ways of the Rifle. I have experimented with that a bit and it seems to push your right shoulder into the butt plate, which I assume is the purpose. I had no idea though that he was lying at 45 degrees to the rifle.
As to the butt extension, I thought many of these guys had it pretty short as each of them seem to have their face all the way to the front of the cheek piece, with their noses near end of the bolt.
Thanks for the insights, and if time permits and you wish to elaborate any more, I am certainly appreciative.
Tim, I did notice that Martynov's shifts his legs to the right in the pictures in Ways of the Rifle. I have experimented with that a bit and it seems to push your right shoulder into the butt plate, which I assume is the purpose. I had no idea though that he was lying at 45 degrees to the rifle.
As to the butt extension, I thought many of these guys had it pretty short as each of them seem to have their face all the way to the front of the cheek piece, with their noses near end of the bolt.
Thanks for the insights, and if time permits and you wish to elaborate any more, I am certainly appreciative.
Mike,
Here are a few good pics of Martynov's position: http://www.wms-photo.net/gallery/v/shoo ... i-BLR_001/
Here are a few good pics of Martynov's position: http://www.wms-photo.net/gallery/v/shoo ... i-BLR_001/
Mike,
don't mention it.
Sergei Martynov's position is odd (it almost looks like he borrowed his rifle from someone a foot taller), but clearly it works for him. The photos in the link Paul gave are very good.
I think you have hit the answer for Sergei's leg position. Although his wide upper body pushes his left hand a long way forwards, it does not make for good clean recoil. This is because the exaggerated angle puts his shoulder and the but almost parallel to each other, so it is harder to seat the butt securely (probably why it's out there on his shoulder muscle), and it also leaves little weight behind the butt. But by drawing his knee up, Sergei is shifting weight back behind his shoulder; this combined with the very high buttplate, and the leverage from his far-out hand, means the muzzle hardly moves during recoil.
Regarding the butt, the trend amongst many top shooters is to have this quite short, particularly among the Europeans. Often the short butt goes with a very high buttplate and right shoulder, and a very low left shoulder and very steep left forearm (Valerian Sauveplane, and Marco DeNicolo are good examples). This position looks awfully uncomfortable to me, but clearly it works for them, and I'm not a top international with a coach and time to train. Also the shorter butt brings the weight of the rifle back.
But not all the top shooters keep the butt short. Eric, Stevan Pletikosic, and Nemanja Mirosvljev are names that spring to mind. Firstly all these guys are tall (6ft+ according to the ISSF website). Secondly, they have been competing for many years, so I think they may reflect a slightly older coaching fashion - if it still works why change?
Martynov seems to be of average height, so his very long butt is probably due to his odd position. Wide body = right shoulder far back.
don't mention it.
Sergei Martynov's position is odd (it almost looks like he borrowed his rifle from someone a foot taller), but clearly it works for him. The photos in the link Paul gave are very good.
I think you have hit the answer for Sergei's leg position. Although his wide upper body pushes his left hand a long way forwards, it does not make for good clean recoil. This is because the exaggerated angle puts his shoulder and the but almost parallel to each other, so it is harder to seat the butt securely (probably why it's out there on his shoulder muscle), and it also leaves little weight behind the butt. But by drawing his knee up, Sergei is shifting weight back behind his shoulder; this combined with the very high buttplate, and the leverage from his far-out hand, means the muzzle hardly moves during recoil.
Regarding the butt, the trend amongst many top shooters is to have this quite short, particularly among the Europeans. Often the short butt goes with a very high buttplate and right shoulder, and a very low left shoulder and very steep left forearm (Valerian Sauveplane, and Marco DeNicolo are good examples). This position looks awfully uncomfortable to me, but clearly it works for them, and I'm not a top international with a coach and time to train. Also the shorter butt brings the weight of the rifle back.
But not all the top shooters keep the butt short. Eric, Stevan Pletikosic, and Nemanja Mirosvljev are names that spring to mind. Firstly all these guys are tall (6ft+ according to the ISSF website). Secondly, they have been competing for many years, so I think they may reflect a slightly older coaching fashion - if it still works why change?
Martynov seems to be of average height, so his very long butt is probably due to his odd position. Wide body = right shoulder far back.
Tim and Paul, thanks again.
The pictures in the link in Paul's post are quite informative. The previous photos I had seen in no way hint at the extreme nature of this position. The overhead picture is the most revealing. It shows a spine angle that may be closer to 60 degrees to the rifle than 45 degrees. This has the effect of pushing the left shoulder almost as far forward as the back of the bolt.
I now see how he has his hand so far forward on the stock. When I use to look at those pictures, I thought I was seeing an optical illusion as I figured a man of his height could not push the hand to near the end of the stock and still keep 30 degrees between forearm and floor.
We are looking at a couple of days of rain here, so I think I will spend it in my garage playing with this. The position does look like it will require a lot of ibuprofen though!
The pictures in the link in Paul's post are quite informative. The previous photos I had seen in no way hint at the extreme nature of this position. The overhead picture is the most revealing. It shows a spine angle that may be closer to 60 degrees to the rifle than 45 degrees. This has the effect of pushing the left shoulder almost as far forward as the back of the bolt.
I now see how he has his hand so far forward on the stock. When I use to look at those pictures, I thought I was seeing an optical illusion as I figured a man of his height could not push the hand to near the end of the stock and still keep 30 degrees between forearm and floor.
We are looking at a couple of days of rain here, so I think I will spend it in my garage playing with this. The position does look like it will require a lot of ibuprofen though!