SIG P210 vs. 1911

6string · Post by **6string** » Sat Jun 08, 2013 11:33 pm

Hello,

I would be grateful to hear from anyone who has some experience using the SIG P210 (in any of it's various versions) vs. the 1911 as a centerfire pistol or in any of the long range (50M) matches, such as the Swiss service pistol match.
I'd like to get some thoughts around such things as ergonomics (trigger reach and feel, recoil impulse, follow through), and of course, accuracy.

I searched the archives and couldn't find a lot that answered my specific inquiry.

Thanks for your input!

Jim

David M · Post by **David M** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:22 am

Neither the P210 or 1911 makes a good ISSF centre fire gun, the 9mm Luger or .38 super (1911 only) will not match a good .32 auto or a match .38 revolver in group size.
My P210 at 25m shoots about 35-50mm (outside to outside) and my Manurhin revolver a 22-28mm group.
As a Service, WA1500 or Action style pistol each has good and bad points.
The P210 has a more raked grip (European style) and the 1911 is more upright grip angle.
The safety on the P210 is awkward but the 1911 is easy and ambidextrous.
The trigger on the P210 is superb out of the box, but the 1911 requires a little gun smithing to match the feeling.
The early P210 has a grip base magazine release and the later has a American style magazine release same as the 1911.
The 1911 mags are certainly a lot cheaper than the P210, as are most other parts for the 1911 (plus lots of them).
The P210 sits lower in the hand so it has a less pronounced recoil, the 1911 higher and not as forgiving in recoil. Beware the older P210 without the beavertail suffer from hammer bite if you get the grip wrong.
As a preference after shooting both, I own a 5" and a 6" Sig P210's.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:50 am

At the time, the P210 was evaluated on the 50m range. Every P210 will do less than 3 inches at 50m, even a 600 Euro Swiss Army type gun, with Swiss Army hardball ammo. Good ones, less than 2" (my one does, but it's a HF model from the late 1970s, so it should). It's not an easy gun to shoot one handed, and certainly inferior in ergonomics etc. to any modern .32. I've shot the 210 against 1911 clones in Germany, and while there are for sure some 1911 around that have the quality and the precision of an old 210, they cost at least as much. Back in the times (1950s to 60s) the national team guys here used to shoot Free Pistol matches with the long barrel 210, and good shooters could do 540+ (yes, I've seen the match cards). Many good shooters here actually use the 210 in .30 Luger, not in 9mm. You can easily kill a 210 with hot ammo, so if you want to knock something down instead of just punching holes, use a 1911. Beware of the newer "Legend" 210s, cheap stuff with lousy triggers. Don't go for a 210 with a number below 60xxx, as the early slides were not hardened right and tend to go loose after a time.

David M · Post by **David M** » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:15 pm

I should add that the groups mentioned above are with lead projectiles. The P210 group is better with Jacketed and it took some time to come up with a good lead load.

6string · Post by **6string** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:28 am

Hi,
Thanks for the great replies. David, thanks for mentioning the lead projectiles. I really like using cast bullets, so perhaps I should have mentioned that.
I have an opportunity to purchase a 210-6 from the late 70s in minty condition. Not cheap, but attractively priced if you know the market.
I like the 1911, even for CF matches, but if I could change the grip angle to something more angled, I would. Same for the lower bore line.
Tycho, thanks for the insights. I certainly don't doubt those scores! As an aside, the 30 Luger cartridge does seem to offer a bit of an edge precision-wise, even in a P08.
Anyhow, thanks again for the valuable information. That gives me a few things to consider.

Jim

Leon · Post by **Leon** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:45 pm

You can get SIG barrels for P210s which have been specially designed for lead projectiles - the so-called 'bleilauf'.

In addition, Harald Berty in Germany makes a wonderful polygon rifled barrel for P210s - ideally suited for lead projectiles...

6string · Post by **6string** » Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:15 pm

Hi Leon,

Thanks for the barrel info. I was completely unaware that such aftermarket barrels existed. Also, in the US polygonal barrels are often thought of as being unsuited for lead projectiles. So much for that theory!
The replies that have been submitted have been extremely helpful. I had debated putting this inquiry here or in the Bullseye section of this forum. I'm glad I posted here since the replies have been objective and "international" in their perspective.

David M · Post by **David M** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:42 am

The Sig lead barrel is a 6" threaded barrel, it will fit a -6 (5" frame) with the thread protruding out the end or you can remove the foresight off the frame and fit the barrel foresight mount and convert it to a -5 (6").
The barrel will not fit the -5LS as the thread will run in the bushing.

diopter · Post by **diopter** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:10 pm

I have a few stock Swiss Army ones and one with the Dobler adjustable rear and wider front sight, which I have yet to really try out. Maybe tonight if I don't have to call a line. Find a good load and enjoy.
Helps not to have to beefy a hand. I couldn't used them when my hands swelled up from Arthritis. Should be good to go now.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:41 pm

There are different grips, as well. The old wooden "stock" grip was pretty slim, while the newer plastic grips ("Hi Grip") have a bit more substance to them, and give a slightly more raked angle - and they are legal for Swiss service pistol matches. Other aftermarket grips (Nill PPC etc.) are fantastic, but not legal for any competitions here.

I know people who are using copper plated lead bullets from H&N in their 9mm 210 with standard barrels. Those bullets would be ISSF legal, and they apparently shoot pretty well. In 7.65, a surprisingly good load are the light 73grs bullets (.32 ACP) with a bit more powder, excellent groups at 50m, very light recoil. Need to have a clean gun, though.

diopter · Post by **diopter** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:36 am

Who makes or retails the Hi-Grip?
Shot very well last night with the Dobler sight. Extra width helps in the timed and Rapid fire strings. 124gr is a bit harsh on the rapid fire with the issue grips on the Military P47/49.
I'll have to find some good 115gr loads again.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:04 am

The Hi-Grip was made by a company named Marti for SIG/Hämmerli, and sold via the normal Hämmerli channels here. One can still find them in gunsmith's shops in Switzerland, don't know who might have them in an online shop, though.

See that the slide speed doesn't get too high when you shoot lighter bullets in the 9mm, or your frame will crack sooner or later. The Danish army kille thousands of m/49 pistols by using hotter (submachine-) ammo.

diopter · Post by **diopter** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:16 am

Yes, might need to find an "S" recoil/slide spring assembly again.

Tycho · Post by **Tycho** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:34 am

Or upgrade to a tungsten spring rod - Hamann in Germany makes them, and he can fit it with a stronger spring, too.

Leon · Post by **Leon** » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:57 pm

" The Hi-Grip was made by a company named Marti for SIG/Hämmerli, and sold via the normal Hämmerli channels here. One can still find them in gunsmith's shops in Switzerland, don't know who might have them in an online shop, though. "

You can purchase the P210 Hi Grips from www.gunfactory.ch online.

diopter · Post by **diopter** » Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:11 pm

Thanks for the lead Leon.

They are closed until July 1st.
Also found them at WaffenBoerse.ch
http://www.waffenboerse.ch/waffenzubeho ... g-210.html