4 h 3 position
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4 h 3 position
yesterday we had a 3positon small bore competition and had 1 team that started shooting and then i noticed after 1 memeber started shooting record bulls that he would shoot 2 shots that did not appear on his record bulls and got to wtching closer and would every now and then see a shot in 1 of his sighters and then he would shoot a record bull . range officer was notified and said he could not find a rule against it .is it legalin the nra 3position rules for this to go on
My Daughter started shooting 4-H about 3 years ago. One thing you have to understand about 4-H is that at a local / state level most simply make up their own version of the rules. They tend to follow a standard rule book but then make variations or allowances as they see fit. Often they greatly simplify the rules to accommodate the less experienced competitors and range officials.
At first I was rather frustrated by this but later realized that 4-H is generally not intended to be a high level competition. The purpose is to teach the kids proper safety and introduce them to shooting competition. Those who want to get serious will move on to other shooting venues.
That is exactly what has happened with my daughter. She got introduced to shooting through a 4-H program, but is now shooting USAS, CMP and NRA sanctioned events. She is completing one last summer of 4-H competitions just to have fun with her shooting buddies who have not made the switch to more serious shooting.
My advice is to simply go with flow and have fun with 4-H. It is a great place to introduce kids to shooting. When you (or your kid(s)) start getting serious enough about it to nit pick the rules, you are probably ready to move on to more serious competitions.
Then when you start doing the sanctioned matches you will be frustrated in the other direction............. SOOoooo many rules!!! Remember to have fun, its all about the kids!!
There are some 4-H clubs around the country who run some very serious programs. They follow the rules, and sanction their matches with USAS or CMP. However, that tends to be the exception, rather than the rule in 4-H. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking 4-H. It fills a niche of getting kids (and volunteers) started in the shooting sports. That is a good thing!
At first I was rather frustrated by this but later realized that 4-H is generally not intended to be a high level competition. The purpose is to teach the kids proper safety and introduce them to shooting competition. Those who want to get serious will move on to other shooting venues.
That is exactly what has happened with my daughter. She got introduced to shooting through a 4-H program, but is now shooting USAS, CMP and NRA sanctioned events. She is completing one last summer of 4-H competitions just to have fun with her shooting buddies who have not made the switch to more serious shooting.
My advice is to simply go with flow and have fun with 4-H. It is a great place to introduce kids to shooting. When you (or your kid(s)) start getting serious enough about it to nit pick the rules, you are probably ready to move on to more serious competitions.
Then when you start doing the sanctioned matches you will be frustrated in the other direction............. SOOoooo many rules!!! Remember to have fun, its all about the kids!!
There are some 4-H clubs around the country who run some very serious programs. They follow the rules, and sanction their matches with USAS or CMP. However, that tends to be the exception, rather than the rule in 4-H. Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking 4-H. It fills a niche of getting kids (and volunteers) started in the shooting sports. That is a good thing!
The one rule for 4-H is that many times there are no rules.
That said, the 4-H Nationals shoots 3-P smallbore using the NRA Smallbore Rifle Rules and uses the 3.2 "Any Rifle" rule ... BUT it is not a sanctioned match.
For your match if you were using these rules then,
Using 9.2.1 for a misplaced sighter shot they can fire their FIRST sighter shot outside the sighter area, and then have an RO watch as they move the shots back into the sighter area with no penalty.
After that you use rule 14.4 Misses - Hits outside the scoring rings of the competitor’s target are scored as misses.
Also, he should have been penalized as per 14.7a:
On his own target - If a competitor fires more than the required number of shots on a target card, he will be scored only the required number of hits of lowest value minus a penalty of one point for each hit in excess of the required number on the individual bullseye(s) on which the excessive hits occur. Penalty points shall be deducted from the remaining hit or hits of highest value and the net value (actual value of hits less penalty) shall thereafter be scored as the actual value. A 10X or a 10 so penalized becomes a 9.
I'm a 4-H instructor/coach and I know there are many 4-H programs that just pick and choose and make up their own rules. One of the issues you face is that if it is not a registered or approved NRA match you have no recourse to these "pick-up" rules or ignoring of the rules. Probably the main reason that the 4-H Nationals holds absolutely no interest for me ... Only one event in the entire championship is sanctioned ... the Air Rifle 3-P by the CMP. One year at the 4-H Nationals when Texas was hosting the match and using their own rules, CMP withdrew their sanctioning and none of the shooters received CMP EIC points.
Addition after I posted, I see that Rick posted just above ... He is correct ... by the time you get real frustrated with 4-H rules, it's time to move your kids on to USAS and more formal NRA matches. Probably much more in shooting/competing opportunities there.
I've successfully lobbied our State director to follow the National 4-H rules in our State championships (we even sanction our 3-P Air rifle event ... one of only two states that does), but have had no luck in the lower level District contests in the state. Our kids shoot state for the buckles they can win ... pretty much everything else is USAS or NRA.
That said, the 4-H Nationals shoots 3-P smallbore using the NRA Smallbore Rifle Rules and uses the 3.2 "Any Rifle" rule ... BUT it is not a sanctioned match.
For your match if you were using these rules then,
Using 9.2.1 for a misplaced sighter shot they can fire their FIRST sighter shot outside the sighter area, and then have an RO watch as they move the shots back into the sighter area with no penalty.
After that you use rule 14.4 Misses - Hits outside the scoring rings of the competitor’s target are scored as misses.
Also, he should have been penalized as per 14.7a:
On his own target - If a competitor fires more than the required number of shots on a target card, he will be scored only the required number of hits of lowest value minus a penalty of one point for each hit in excess of the required number on the individual bullseye(s) on which the excessive hits occur. Penalty points shall be deducted from the remaining hit or hits of highest value and the net value (actual value of hits less penalty) shall thereafter be scored as the actual value. A 10X or a 10 so penalized becomes a 9.
I'm a 4-H instructor/coach and I know there are many 4-H programs that just pick and choose and make up their own rules. One of the issues you face is that if it is not a registered or approved NRA match you have no recourse to these "pick-up" rules or ignoring of the rules. Probably the main reason that the 4-H Nationals holds absolutely no interest for me ... Only one event in the entire championship is sanctioned ... the Air Rifle 3-P by the CMP. One year at the 4-H Nationals when Texas was hosting the match and using their own rules, CMP withdrew their sanctioning and none of the shooters received CMP EIC points.
Addition after I posted, I see that Rick posted just above ... He is correct ... by the time you get real frustrated with 4-H rules, it's time to move your kids on to USAS and more formal NRA matches. Probably much more in shooting/competing opportunities there.
I've successfully lobbied our State director to follow the National 4-H rules in our State championships (we even sanction our 3-P Air rifle event ... one of only two states that does), but have had no luck in the lower level District contests in the state. Our kids shoot state for the buckles they can win ... pretty much everything else is USAS or NRA.
3p
i understand that each match is diferent rules as i am a 4h rifle coach also it was just that this was a district match which we usually have to dot every i and cross every t so the kids ca compete as teams . and yes im in texas.i cant prove it but this shooter was placed between 2 of his team mates that were not as good as him and in there standing and kneeling targets they had skipped several bulls and before brought it to the range officer attention they were slowly being filled in while he supposedly was shooting back and fourth at his own sighters and bulls .so tell me what kind of coach would teach this to his kids . we had 2 very good shooters and 1 shooter that was just getting started 2nd time shooting and he did his best and was all smiles with the other 2 as they treated him as an important part of intheir team. in our club we try to promote good sportsmanship between other counties and each shooter will always get better
Boy, I sure wish I could tell you that something like that could never happen in this sport, but as in life there are some that will take advantage of any situation get a bauble.
As your kids move into the area of the sport that is more "regulated" if you will, there seem to be fewer, either they eventually get caught or others shun them to the point they fade away. As in your case probably, you know who to watch, and who to inform the ROs to watch. Word gets around, this is not a HUGE sport.
Try to shield your kids from it and keep them motivated and happy and feeling good about their own successes.
As your kids move into the area of the sport that is more "regulated" if you will, there seem to be fewer, either they eventually get caught or others shun them to the point they fade away. As in your case probably, you know who to watch, and who to inform the ROs to watch. Word gets around, this is not a HUGE sport.
Try to shield your kids from it and keep them motivated and happy and feeling good about their own successes.
It sounds like you have more of a cheating issue than a rules issue. I really hope the coach was unaware rather than condoning the behavior. I suggest you keep a very close eye, along with a second witness the next comptition. Then make an issue of it if it happens again. Intentional cheating cannot be just overlooked.
Do an ammo count.
If the one who was firing at others targets starts with 100 rounds for example, has 70 hits on his targets and only has 10 rounds left... Did he miss 20 shoots?
If the ones that "received" the shoots started with 100 rounds, have 70 holes in their targets and 50 rounds left... Did a bullet pass trough the target twice?
A pair of spotting scopes watching should be sufficient to stop this.
If the one who was firing at others targets starts with 100 rounds for example, has 70 hits on his targets and only has 10 rounds left... Did he miss 20 shoots?
If the ones that "received" the shoots started with 100 rounds, have 70 holes in their targets and 50 rounds left... Did a bullet pass trough the target twice?
A pair of spotting scopes watching should be sufficient to stop this.
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GCSInc
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Pick me! Pick me! A long, hard fought battle that covered several years of work!"we even sanction our 3-P Air rifle event ... one of only two states that does"
I have heard about that happening in BB (shooting record shots then going back to sighters... I hear it's even in the "NRA 5 meter Air Rifle / BB Rulebook... A ridiculous process, propagated by questionable coaches...) but never in any legitimate competition under any sanctioning body that I know of.
Got me laughing! Yes, Georgia and New Mexico are currently the ONLY two states that sanction their State 4-H 3-P air rifle match.GCSInc wrote:Pick me! Pick me! A long, hard fought battle that covered several years of work!"we even sanction our 3-P Air rifle event ... one of only two states that does"
Those who are in a position to possibly influence your State Match, please consider it ... it would go a bit of a way to maybe improve the perception of 4-H shooting by some of the major governing bodies here in the US.
As Roy said ... it may take years, but would be worth the effort.
Referencing back to the original thread regarding sighters and when they can be taken.
There are two NRA rulebooks that govern smallbore rifle: The Smallbore Rifle Rules and International Rifle Rules.
The International Rifle Rules book is a decent analogue to the ISSF / USAS rules while the Smallbore Rifle Rules simply belong to the NRA but are often used as a guide by other sanctioning bodies. Overall the Smallbore rules typically have less stringent limitations on equipment, often use targets with larger scoring rings and have shorter time allowances than the International Rifle Rules.
Now, regarding sighting shots: Both rulebooks cover sighting shots under rule 9.2.
For Smallbore Rifle Rules
For International Rifle Rules
So, it depends on which of the NRA rules the tournament is operating under as to whether returning to the sighter is legal.
'Dude
There are two NRA rulebooks that govern smallbore rifle: The Smallbore Rifle Rules and International Rifle Rules.
The International Rifle Rules book is a decent analogue to the ISSF / USAS rules while the Smallbore Rifle Rules simply belong to the NRA but are often used as a guide by other sanctioning bodies. Overall the Smallbore rules typically have less stringent limitations on equipment, often use targets with larger scoring rings and have shorter time allowances than the International Rifle Rules.
Now, regarding sighting shots: Both rulebooks cover sighting shots under rule 9.2.
For Smallbore Rifle Rules
This is usually interpreted to mean that the shooter can return to the sighter bull at his or her discretion regardless of the number of record shots fired.9.2 Fouling and Sighting Shots -Fouling and sighting shots are permitted at any time unless prohibited by the program. They will only be fired upon the command COMMENCE FIRING.
For International Rifle Rules
The IRR rule is pretty clear, one you go for record you can' t go back.9.2 Sighting Shots
(a) Sighting Shots (unlimited in number) may only be fired before going for record in each stage, match or position. Once the first record shot in a position has been fired, no further sighting shots are allowed unless permitted by the Jury.
So, it depends on which of the NRA rules the tournament is operating under as to whether returning to the sighter is legal.
'Dude
With regard to team members firing on a target that is not their own, or for any shooter firing on a target that is not their own:
This is what backers are for. While the target companies do sell blank target stock, most clubs just put up used targets backwards behind the actual scored target. About 3 in behind for 50ft and about 10" behind for 50 or 100 yards. (There are specs around for this)
Anyhow, first thing to do when scoring is to insure that all the shot holes in the record target match with shot holes in the backer. If they don't is it time to start looking for where the shots that do not match up came from.
'Dude
This is what backers are for. While the target companies do sell blank target stock, most clubs just put up used targets backwards behind the actual scored target. About 3 in behind for 50ft and about 10" behind for 50 or 100 yards. (There are specs around for this)
Anyhow, first thing to do when scoring is to insure that all the shot holes in the record target match with shot holes in the backer. If they don't is it time to start looking for where the shots that do not match up came from.
'Dude
I am not sure if 4-H has their own rulebook or like many organizations I have seen say "We use the NRA rulebook". Then folks get all flustered when you ask, "Which One?"
As another part of this thread alludes to, the full on NRA rules are often more than is needed for basic introduction to competition matches.
Now, if 4-H has their own rulebook then if returning to the sighter is not specifically prohibited then I would have to say it is OK.
WRT the possibility that shooters are not firing all their shots on their targets, I am kind of guessing this is all at 50ft as there accidental crossfiring by beginners is a relatively rare event but quiet common at 50yds. Depending on the target holder I have seen the problem solved with a simple piece of sheetmetal bent into the shape of a U. In many cases pretty simple to install and remove before and after a tournament.
'Dude
As another part of this thread alludes to, the full on NRA rules are often more than is needed for basic introduction to competition matches.
Now, if 4-H has their own rulebook then if returning to the sighter is not specifically prohibited then I would have to say it is OK.
WRT the possibility that shooters are not firing all their shots on their targets, I am kind of guessing this is all at 50ft as there accidental crossfiring by beginners is a relatively rare event but quiet common at 50yds. Depending on the target holder I have seen the problem solved with a simple piece of sheetmetal bent into the shape of a U. In many cases pretty simple to install and remove before and after a tournament.
'Dude
Not in 3P but in our state 4H AP (PPP) match there was a difference between the age/position allowance at the match and the positions our kids had been shooting through the season. Long story short --- read the match program. The rule spelled out in the match program clearly allowed the situation, the shooter from our club had not read (or understood?) the rule and went with what he was familiar with. As has been said, this IS 4H, and --- their match, their rules --- so read the program.
We use the 12-bull targets for 3P, and stress that once a record bull has been shot there is no returning to sighter shots. If 2 or 3 shots are off in the same area we do suggest they might adjust their sight, but still no returning to sighters.
We use the 12-bull targets for 3P, and stress that once a record bull has been shot there is no returning to sighter shots. If 2 or 3 shots are off in the same area we do suggest they might adjust their sight, but still no returning to sighters.