So looking at performance levels, and I see a plateau. Trying to help coach a few kids to learn how to win. They shoot good, but not good enough to win big. How do we focus the training to get them to achieve the next few points they need to achieve podium appearances? Just additional training and trigger time does not seem like it will be enough. I am thinking it needs to be the small refinement of the processes to get them there.
I really want to see them achieve the new heights, but feel sometimes the teens do not want to do the extra it takes to be on top. Any little suggestions would help get them there would be appreciated.
Getting over the hump?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Todd ....
From the perspective of the juniors, this is kind of a tough one as there are (I think) 2 variables in the equation ... physical growth, and mental blocks.
To me the one that seems to get me the most is the physical growth of the kids ... I see them 2-3 times per week and tend not to notice the changes as they occur over a few months. Taking photos of the shooter in their positions and then comparing them is where I find myself discovering those changes .... and usually I see the changes in a photo after a match occurs (where we take the most photos) ... I probably need to take more at the specific practices where they are in the individual positions ... just need to make time and remember to do it.
Tore my daughter's kneeling down & started over when I noticed her in a really goofy, crunched up, position at the JO qualifiers ... fixed it and it worked well at Rocky, but she's grown again and at JOs was not optimal again ... I just need to keep on that.
The mental aspect can be far harder. I'm a firm believer in shooting your average (plus or minus a few) at a match. I got this from Bob Foth years ago in his pairs clinics.
If the shooters shoot significantly lower in a match, then they are trying way too hard and counting their score. Way higher in a match and they are not working efficiently in practice ... dogging it, if you will.
I'll try and inform my shooters of what I expect their score to be if they just shoot average .... made up from the last few months or so. If they do that I'm happy. I try to get them to use the practices to try new things to increase that average ... not to try them at the matches.
Sure, everyone wants to get into the final, but we as coaches need to manage the expectations as well. If their average is going to place them about the top 1/3 and not in the final we need to be honest with them before the event.
Good news/Bad news is that now gaining a huge lead going into the final is not at all helpful anymore. Trying too hard to build up a lead has caused many crashes, especially with the juniors.
Concentrating on the single shot performance, not counting the score and being confident you can shoot an average and get you into the final is where it's at now. Again, it should go back to the expectations .... I tend to do the research (and I probably should get the shooters to) to see what the expected score is to get into the final. If their average score is close, then "maybe" ... watch your sleep, watch your diet, and watch who you hang around with.
If their average score is really not there, then: shoot your average, watch your sleep, watch your diet, watch who you hang around with, and lets try and get your average up in practice for the next match.
(There are not many shooters that will play the game of messing with your head before a match ... there are a few ... stay away from them and hang out with those you have fun with and will encourage you)
Some of this is going to depend how the shooter interfaces with you as a coach ... are they listening or just blowing you off. The ones that blow me off I try and get with another coach and see if that works.
Getting them around other coaches has been helpful for me. I'm not all that experienced in the nuances of the shooters mental attitudes (I come out of a swimming background). We've brought Bob Foth, Paul Davis, and others here ... sometimes those offering advice (sometimes the same!) tend to get listened to.
I've sent my daughter up to another coach and it's worked out well. Some of the BEST advice on shooting a final has come from him.
She comes home, tells me what she learned, and I learn too.
Well, long winded, and I may be full of it and not have a clue, but it is what I try and do with my shooters.
From the perspective of the juniors, this is kind of a tough one as there are (I think) 2 variables in the equation ... physical growth, and mental blocks.
To me the one that seems to get me the most is the physical growth of the kids ... I see them 2-3 times per week and tend not to notice the changes as they occur over a few months. Taking photos of the shooter in their positions and then comparing them is where I find myself discovering those changes .... and usually I see the changes in a photo after a match occurs (where we take the most photos) ... I probably need to take more at the specific practices where they are in the individual positions ... just need to make time and remember to do it.
Tore my daughter's kneeling down & started over when I noticed her in a really goofy, crunched up, position at the JO qualifiers ... fixed it and it worked well at Rocky, but she's grown again and at JOs was not optimal again ... I just need to keep on that.
The mental aspect can be far harder. I'm a firm believer in shooting your average (plus or minus a few) at a match. I got this from Bob Foth years ago in his pairs clinics.
If the shooters shoot significantly lower in a match, then they are trying way too hard and counting their score. Way higher in a match and they are not working efficiently in practice ... dogging it, if you will.
I'll try and inform my shooters of what I expect their score to be if they just shoot average .... made up from the last few months or so. If they do that I'm happy. I try to get them to use the practices to try new things to increase that average ... not to try them at the matches.
Sure, everyone wants to get into the final, but we as coaches need to manage the expectations as well. If their average is going to place them about the top 1/3 and not in the final we need to be honest with them before the event.
Good news/Bad news is that now gaining a huge lead going into the final is not at all helpful anymore. Trying too hard to build up a lead has caused many crashes, especially with the juniors.
Concentrating on the single shot performance, not counting the score and being confident you can shoot an average and get you into the final is where it's at now. Again, it should go back to the expectations .... I tend to do the research (and I probably should get the shooters to) to see what the expected score is to get into the final. If their average score is close, then "maybe" ... watch your sleep, watch your diet, and watch who you hang around with.
If their average score is really not there, then: shoot your average, watch your sleep, watch your diet, watch who you hang around with, and lets try and get your average up in practice for the next match.
(There are not many shooters that will play the game of messing with your head before a match ... there are a few ... stay away from them and hang out with those you have fun with and will encourage you)
Some of this is going to depend how the shooter interfaces with you as a coach ... are they listening or just blowing you off. The ones that blow me off I try and get with another coach and see if that works.
Getting them around other coaches has been helpful for me. I'm not all that experienced in the nuances of the shooters mental attitudes (I come out of a swimming background). We've brought Bob Foth, Paul Davis, and others here ... sometimes those offering advice (sometimes the same!) tend to get listened to.
I've sent my daughter up to another coach and it's worked out well. Some of the BEST advice on shooting a final has come from him.
She comes home, tells me what she learned, and I learn too.
Well, long winded, and I may be full of it and not have a clue, but it is what I try and do with my shooters.
Joel, thank you. We work hard on the mental game for the kids and hard on the physical aspects of the positions and sport. Sometimes, the distractions of school, life and being a teen pull at what we do. The scores and performances each kid has are good, but need to get better if they really want to compete. Being a bit competitive myself, it just tears me apart inside when a kid tells me their goals and then does not train or get the help to achieve those goals. Speaking it is easy, training for it is hard and that is why winners win and those who do not win need to try harder. They all come out of it with some type of win, a personal best or a outcome that is their everyday walking around score. Nothing more, nothing less. It is getting them to raise the bar in the training, but after all most are still high school students first and athletes second.
As a parent and a coach I always want to see the best outcome from each performance, but have now started to think that early on in the training, hit as many matches as they can to be prepared. As they approach the upper levels of the sport, the athlete and coaches need to reevaluate the matches they are training for. This year I noticed time distractions by training for 3P Air matches, 3P NRA Sectional matches, standing air matches, 4p matches, Between Dec and April, there were 17 matches that we participated in. I am seriously thinking we may have approached burn out on that. Time to refocus the matches we prioritize that we will focus resources and effort on.
As a parent and a coach I always want to see the best outcome from each performance, but have now started to think that early on in the training, hit as many matches as they can to be prepared. As they approach the upper levels of the sport, the athlete and coaches need to reevaluate the matches they are training for. This year I noticed time distractions by training for 3P Air matches, 3P NRA Sectional matches, standing air matches, 4p matches, Between Dec and April, there were 17 matches that we participated in. I am seriously thinking we may have approached burn out on that. Time to refocus the matches we prioritize that we will focus resources and effort on.
I'm a 4-H Coach, so we have 3 age groups of kids ... Novice, Junior & senior.
I think that the local 4-H matches are "fun" matches that really do not accomplish much. (From our club's perspective)
For our kids that like to shoot, but have many other interests as well, 3-P Air matches are good for them.
For the serious shooters, then there is really no choice but to begin to shift to the international style air matches (USAS/ISSF) and begin to work on smallbore. They'll need to begin to pick up their own equipment (clothing, gear, & rifles). Our club has some of this, but I know they are serious when they start spending for their own gear.
While the intermediate shooters may still get something from 3-P air, I don't focus them on it.
Currently our International style (precision - if you will) shooters do not practice 3-P air ... only standing .... and 60-80 shots/practice at that unless we are changing something.
All of these (advanced) kids 3-P practice is behind a smallbore gun.
I'll toss up a 3x10 airgun practice before these kids shoot in a major 3-P air match, but I'd rather get their fingers on the airgun triggers in standing.
Now again, we are a 4-H club, and can practice like this .... a JROTC shooter will have to go the extra mile to get any smallbore practice in ... We who host the JO qualifiers see a lot of potential go by the wayside as the good JROTC shooters come in and only shoot air in the qualifiers and don't bother with the smallbore match.
And no, I'm not a fan of 3-P air anymore. The new match format, the new qualifying for Nationals (does ANYONE really understand it?), focusing on teams rather than individual shooters, putting the regionals on the same weekend as the USAS JOs tells me they want to be in their own world.
I think that the local 4-H matches are "fun" matches that really do not accomplish much. (From our club's perspective)
For our kids that like to shoot, but have many other interests as well, 3-P Air matches are good for them.
For the serious shooters, then there is really no choice but to begin to shift to the international style air matches (USAS/ISSF) and begin to work on smallbore. They'll need to begin to pick up their own equipment (clothing, gear, & rifles). Our club has some of this, but I know they are serious when they start spending for their own gear.
While the intermediate shooters may still get something from 3-P air, I don't focus them on it.
Currently our International style (precision - if you will) shooters do not practice 3-P air ... only standing .... and 60-80 shots/practice at that unless we are changing something.
All of these (advanced) kids 3-P practice is behind a smallbore gun.
I'll toss up a 3x10 airgun practice before these kids shoot in a major 3-P air match, but I'd rather get their fingers on the airgun triggers in standing.
Now again, we are a 4-H club, and can practice like this .... a JROTC shooter will have to go the extra mile to get any smallbore practice in ... We who host the JO qualifiers see a lot of potential go by the wayside as the good JROTC shooters come in and only shoot air in the qualifiers and don't bother with the smallbore match.
And no, I'm not a fan of 3-P air anymore. The new match format, the new qualifying for Nationals (does ANYONE really understand it?), focusing on teams rather than individual shooters, putting the regionals on the same weekend as the USAS JOs tells me they want to be in their own world.
Todd,
I don't have any drills or technical tips to offer. I lack the coaching expertise for that kind of advice.
The difference between those who make it to the podium and those who do not is often "motivation". Everyone wants to win, but few are really willing to do what is required to win. As you said, more trigger time is no guarantee of any significant improvement. It is one thing to "shoot" it is another to really work at getting better. Just shooting is fun, work is...... well, work!
The guy who coaches my daughter tells her often:
"The champions are the ones who are willing to do the things others are not."
He goes on to explain that the champions are willing to spend hours and hours each week dry firing, doing holding exercises, aerobic training, getting in and out of position, etc, etc..... Those who are always a few places away from the podium are those who are not "willing" to do those things that are more like work than fun.
The work of the coach then becomes to push, prod, motivate...... them to do those things champions do to become champions.
I don't have any drills or technical tips to offer. I lack the coaching expertise for that kind of advice.
The difference between those who make it to the podium and those who do not is often "motivation". Everyone wants to win, but few are really willing to do what is required to win. As you said, more trigger time is no guarantee of any significant improvement. It is one thing to "shoot" it is another to really work at getting better. Just shooting is fun, work is...... well, work!
The guy who coaches my daughter tells her often:
"The champions are the ones who are willing to do the things others are not."
He goes on to explain that the champions are willing to spend hours and hours each week dry firing, doing holding exercises, aerobic training, getting in and out of position, etc, etc..... Those who are always a few places away from the podium are those who are not "willing" to do those things that are more like work than fun.
The work of the coach then becomes to push, prod, motivate...... them to do those things champions do to become champions.
This is a hard one, but a few thoughts.
The coaches job is to find things that excite the shooters and motivates them to help them find there own drive to go on and improve. Goal setting is critical and you always have to set acheivable goals for each and every session. Also having short, medium and long term goals is equally critical. Folks, especially youngsters, need to know where they are going and have a path to follow to get there. So equally make sure you have documented training plans, ideally that cover the annual season. They don't have to be complicated to start with just write down the major competitions you are targetting in that year and work around those.
Pushing or prodding is a dangerous path to go down for more than a very short time. The athlete has to want to proceed and to train. So your 'encouragement' has to be around helping them get the fire back in their bellies.
Rob.
The coaches job is to find things that excite the shooters and motivates them to help them find there own drive to go on and improve. Goal setting is critical and you always have to set acheivable goals for each and every session. Also having short, medium and long term goals is equally critical. Folks, especially youngsters, need to know where they are going and have a path to follow to get there. So equally make sure you have documented training plans, ideally that cover the annual season. They don't have to be complicated to start with just write down the major competitions you are targetting in that year and work around those.
Pushing or prodding is a dangerous path to go down for more than a very short time. The athlete has to want to proceed and to train. So your 'encouragement' has to be around helping them get the fire back in their bellies.
Rob.
I don't think the mental part has nearly as much to do with it for kids as it does for adults. They don't have mortgages, jobs and bills or any of those concerns in life. Sure they have their teen angst issues etc but they haven't even lived long enough to know what real mental pressure and stress really is all about that they have to overcome it. From my experience shooting silhouette the kids usually hand the adults their asses at big matches. Not all the time but I know some very talented young shooters all females and some teen boys that consistently put up high scores. IMO it all boils down to their personal motivation to want to improve and the amount of effort and time they are willing to devote to improving along with the support they get from their parents to achieve those goals.
So sure work on the mental aspects of shooting and the pressure that can come with it when you get to a high level of competition but never stop trying to refine how they are shooting to get that little extra out of themselves.
When I have hit plateaus in the past I usually try to find one thing I need to focus on improving and work on that one thing while going back to the fundamentals and making sure I am not overlooking something simple because I believe I already have it figured out. Often I find I am lacking a bit in the basics and hone back in on those. When I get the basics back to being solid and improve on something I need to refine I usually get past the plateau and hit another one. The better you get and the higher your scores the less room you have for error if you want to win in the end. Even National Champion High Power shooters like David Tubb use the off season to experiment with different techniques in the never ending quest to improve to perfection. So don't be afraid to try different things just don't do it mid season or mid match. Cross training in others shooting disciplines can also help to not get bored with one style of shooting and things can be learned that translate back to your main competitive focus in shooting in comps. Most of all keep it fun, once something is no longer fun to a kid they lose interest fast.
Or you could just yell at them and tell them to drop and give you 20 then take a lap. My old football coach seemed to think that technique worked to improve things LMAO.
Bo
So sure work on the mental aspects of shooting and the pressure that can come with it when you get to a high level of competition but never stop trying to refine how they are shooting to get that little extra out of themselves.
When I have hit plateaus in the past I usually try to find one thing I need to focus on improving and work on that one thing while going back to the fundamentals and making sure I am not overlooking something simple because I believe I already have it figured out. Often I find I am lacking a bit in the basics and hone back in on those. When I get the basics back to being solid and improve on something I need to refine I usually get past the plateau and hit another one. The better you get and the higher your scores the less room you have for error if you want to win in the end. Even National Champion High Power shooters like David Tubb use the off season to experiment with different techniques in the never ending quest to improve to perfection. So don't be afraid to try different things just don't do it mid season or mid match. Cross training in others shooting disciplines can also help to not get bored with one style of shooting and things can be learned that translate back to your main competitive focus in shooting in comps. Most of all keep it fun, once something is no longer fun to a kid they lose interest fast.
Or you could just yell at them and tell them to drop and give you 20 then take a lap. My old football coach seemed to think that technique worked to improve things LMAO.
Bo