MATCH GUNS MGH1 HYBIRD...

[kalz]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

This is the ISSF answer to our questions.

[Spencer]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

This is the ISSF answer to our questions.

As David said:
THAT LETTER SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SAFETY FLAGS AND THERE IS CERTAINLY NO RECOMMENDATION (about safety flags) IN IT.
IT DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY EXEMPTION FROM THE RULES.

What were the questions submitted?

The MGH1 is not the only air pistol type that has 'problems' with a full length safety flag through the barrel: it would be 'nice' if the ISSF could give solutions.

[kalz]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

This is the ISSF answer to our questions.

As David said:
THAT LETTER SAYS NOTHING ABOUT SAFETY FLAGS AND THERE IS CERTAINLY NO RECOMMENDATION (about safety flags) IN IT.
IT DOES NOT PROVIDE ANY EXEMPTION FROM THE RULES.

What were the questions submitted?

The MGH1 is not the only air pistol type that has 'problems' with a full length safety flag through the barrel: it would be 'nice' if the ISSF could give solutions.

I think that the important is the answer not the question that is obvious.
Finally my interest is only in the Matchguns products, the other brands are competitors and I don't talk about them.

[David Levene]

I think that the important is the answer not the question that is obvious.

You are, of course, correct.

Do you therefore have an answer, from the ISSF, telling us how to overcome the problem that their suggested design of safety flag cannot be used on this pistol.

Without that then, as I suggested earlier, a satisfactory method of showing the gun is clear will need to be agreed by the match organisers every time.

Your recommendation of putting the pistol on the table with the loading lever in the open position is obviously no different from, or improvement on, the obsolete 2009 rules.

[william]

I'm clearly missing something significant here which neither the product card nor the youtube animation explains. When you open the chamber to insert a pellet is there not a clear path from the chamber to the breech? If there is, how is that incompatible with the (silly) new flag rule? Would somebody please post a pdf of the appropriate pages in the manual that will clear this up?

[dronning]

I think that the important is the answer not the question that is obvious.

The letter as I read it says that the Pistols listed meet the technical requirements to be entered into a competition, that is what is obvious to me.

What is not obvious: Are competitors using these pistols exempted from using a safety flag?

I am an RO for several other shooting sports (but new and only a competitor in this one) and if I were presented this letter I would not allow competitors using the pistols presented in the letter to compete without a safety flag, as defined by the rules (visible at both ends of the barrel).

Clarity is important when developing rules and exemptions, assumptions are bad and cause conflict.

Dave

[David Levene]

I'm clearly missing something significant here which neither the product card nor the youtube animation explains. When you open the chamber to insert a pellet is there not a clear path from the chamber to the breech? If there is, how is that incompatible with the (silly) new flag rule? Would somebody please post a pdf of the appropriate pages in the manual that will clear this up?

Sorry, I thought that had been explained, but I cannot see where.

The problem with this gun is that it has a rotating breech mechanism.

To load it the breech is rotated so that the pellet hole is vertical, perpendicular to the barrel. The only time that they are in line with each other is when the gun is ready to fire.

As a result:-

1) The only way of unloading a pellet is to fire it or, as was pointed out earlier, dig it out of the breech with a pin (or similar).
2) There is never a clear path through the breech and barrel where a length of trimmer line would protrude at each end.

I've nothing against the gun but, without guidance from the ISSF (which should be sought by Matchguns) I would want to discuss the safety arrangements with each shooter. This could lead to inconsistency as other Jury Members, Equipment Control Officers or Range Officers could require different solutions.

[spektr]

Am I missing something???? If you can cut a piece of weedwacker line the correct length and insert it down the barell, the inability to open the breech would indicate an empty gun. The line would be the obstruction to opening the breech. Looks simple to me...

[David Levene]

Am I missing something???? If you can cut a piece of weedwacker line the correct length and insert it down the barell, the inability to open the breech would indicate an empty gun. The line would be the obstruction to opening the breech. Looks simple to me...

Maybe or maybe not. I haven't examined the gun enough to know whether a pellet takes up all of the room in the breech or whether there is still space in front of it for the line to fit.

Even if the pellet did take up all of the room in the breech mechanism, what you are suggesting would still be in breach of the ISSF rules in that:-

1) You would be dealing with a closed gun
2) The safety flag would not be visible at both ends.

These breaches would require the agreement of match organisers. Some might agree with them; many others (including me) most certainly wouldn't.

[Brian Lafferty]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

What the letter says is that this pistol "[is] compliant with the ISSF Rules and Regulations." If it is compliant, as it is, then it matters not about the actual insertion of a safety line because it is compliant. I see no other reasonable (repeat--reasonable) interpretation. Change through innovation is always unsettling and confusing to those who are charged with enforcing rules that have been in use long enough to become commonplace as to practice. Let the battles of common sense begin. lol

BTW, I noticed that the women's 10 meter air event in Granada was won using this pistol.

That said, I am considering purchasing one of these pistols. I'd be interested in hearing about dependability in use over time, particularly of the loading mechanism. The price point is right, IMO, to build market share, but for a little more one can still get a Morini with electric trigger. What to do--a pleasant conundrum.

Anyone used the pistol for a significant enough number of rounds to address reliability? Thanks in advance for input.

Good shooting to all.
Brian

[David Levene]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

What the letter says is that this pistol "[is] compliant with the ISSF Rules and Regulations." If it is compliant, as it is, then it matters not about the actual insertion of a safety line because it is compliant.

The pistol is compliant in that it is in accordance with the pistol construction rules.

It is not however possible to use it fully in compliance with the rules as they stand because you cannot insert a safety flag as required by the rules. Special arrangements must therefore be made.

[Brian Lafferty]

Dear Shooters,
in attachment I send the letter Matchguns received from the ISSF Technical Committee.
The MGH1 is in the list.
The recommendation is to put the pistol on the table with the loading lever in open position.

That letter says absolutely nothing about safety flags and there is certainly no recommendation in it.

It does not provide any exemption from the rules.

What the letter says is that this pistol "[is] compliant with the ISSF Rules and Regulations." If it is compliant, as it is, then it matters not about the actual insertion of a safety line because it is compliant.

The pistol is compliant in that it is in accordance with the pistol construction rules.

It is not however possible to use it fully in compliance with the rules as they stand because you cannot insert a safety flag as required by the rules. Special arrangements must therefore be made.

We'll just have to disagree on that one. As an attorney I can tell you that I'm confident in my interpretation because the flag requirement is a rule/reg that ISSF has said the pistol is in compliance with. I would argue that this ruling by ISSF supersedes the flag requirement for this pistol. As I said, your opinion may vary.
Good shooting.

[David Levene]

As I said, your opinion may vary.

As I am sure you will have expected, it certainly does.

If a shooter expected to be exempted from a gun handling rule solely based on that letter then he would be extremely disappointed on a range I was working.

I am not saying that a reasonable alternative could not be found but, without a procedure approved by the ISSF, it could easily vary from range to range.

[rmca]

As it's done for muzzle loaded black powder guns to know if they are empty (and also cannons for that matter), make a mark on the safety flag that is the total length of the empty barrel, and present the gun with the loading port open plus the flag inserted.

This way you know the barrel is empty, as is the loading port (since it's open you can visually check).

It still doesn't comply with the safety flag rule, but the gun is safe that way.

[Brian Lafferty]

As it's done for muzzle loaded black powder guns to know if they are empty (and also cannons for that matter), make a mark on the safety flag that is the total length of the empty barrel, and present the gun with the loading port open plus the flag inserted.

This way you know the barrel is empty, as is the loading port (since it's open you can visually check).

It still doesn't comply with the safety flag rule, but the gun is safe that way.

That's too rational. I have serious doubts it will ever be adopted. :)
If I buy that pistol, I will do exactly that. Thanks for raising this solution.

[Tycho]

ISSF WC Granada was won with a MG1, not a MGH1. With a MG1, there is absolutely no problem to insert the weedwacker.

[David Levene]

As it's done for muzzle loaded black powder guns to know if they are empty (and also cannons for that matter), make a mark on the safety flag that is the total length of the empty barrel, and present the gun with the loading port open plus the flag inserted.

That's exactly what I have been suggesting to MGH1 users, plus an additional short length of line in the loading port for "long distance" clearing of the gun.

[Brian Lafferty]

ISSF WC Granada was won with a MG1, not a MGH1. With a MG1, there is absolutely no problem to insert the weedwacker.

Ah, ok. Not Steyer? ;)

[rmca]

Styer didn't do so bad...

Four out of the eight (Men) finalists had styer's

1st and 3rd in the MEN air pistol event.

Maybe it's a more manly pistol ;)

[Brian Lafferty]

Styer didn't do so bad...

Four out of the eight (Men) finalists had styer's

1st and 3rd in the MEN air pistol event.

Maybe it's a more manly pistol ;)

I think the shroud on the Styer is indeed more manly for reasons best not discussed here. Resisting typing more.....resisting........resisting....

Good shooting to all.
Brian