Rules question

[FredB]

Here's a rules question. At an indoor match last weekend, a fellow shooter told (not asked) me to keep my trigger finger outside the trigger guard until the gun was pointed at the target, i.e. he wanted me to have my finger outside the guard whenever the gun was in the ready position or on the rise. Since he was a board member of the club putting on the match, I did as he said, but it threw me off a little for the rest of the match. I take my grip while the gun is in the ready position and it doesn't feel right to do that with my finger outside the guard. When I did as he said, I had to revise my grip a little with the gun pointed at the target, which was distracting.

So, the question, is this an NRA match rule, or is it something peculiar to this club? I've shot a lot of matches there over the past few years, and this is the first time anyone mentioned anything like this to me. Afterwards the same guy pointed out, to me and to others, various bullet holes outside of the target area, but I don't believe any of them occurred during a match.

TIA for any information about this.
FredB

[Isabel1130]

This is not an NRA match rule. Anytime after the command to handle your guns is given, you can dry fire, and have your trigger finger anywhere you want it. Sounds like IPSC
bs to me. He doesn't know what he is talking about.

[BenEnglishTX]

Here's a rules question.

The person who gave you that order was a shooter sufficiently lacking in experience that he actually believes Cooper's four safety rules are universal.

They most assuredly are not.

This is a matter that needs to be settled before it gets out of hand. If an IPSC-thinking shooter is trying to force his perspective on others, the officers responsible for Conventional Pistol at that club must address the issue. They need to educate this guy. They need to have a formal agenda item at the next club officers meeting to discuss the fact that those rules were formulated for firearms used in a martial context and do not strictly apply when shooting any ISSF pistol discipline or Conventional Pistol.

The board must reign in this guy. If they don't and if this becomes universally enforced at that club, their Conventional Pistol program is dead. No good shooters will put up with that.

Talk to the person responsible for the Conventional Pistol program and put the monkey on their back to get this nipped in the bud.

[GunRunner]

NRA or not, the Range Officer at a match determines some of the rules to be followed. Find out who is the designated RO and ask him what is the rule on what you were doing.

[wv109323]

That rule applies in some of the Action Pistol disciplines. The thought is that a competitor should not have his finger on the trigger until the firearm is pointed at the target.
In these disciplines the competitors are drawing from a holster. It is possible ,if you have your finger on the trigger, that when you draw from the holster you could pull the trigger and discharge the firearm and possibly shot yourself in the leg. This also requires that the safety ( if so equipped) is clicked off before the pistol comes out of the holster.
Most all the Action disciplines require that the holster cover the trigger opening so that you can not get your finger on the trigger until the firearm is well out of the holster

[Trooperjake]

The bottom line is;
No it is not an NRA rule.
A club running a match can set any additional safety rules it feels required to do for their range. And must be followed.
According to the NRA these additional rules should be in the match program.

This rule would only be in effect for sustained fire.
There is no dry firing before a sustained fire stage.
For slow fire you should be able to handle the pistol as soon as the command fire is given.

[BenEnglishTX]

A club running a match can set any additional safety rules it feels required to do for their range. And must be followed.
According to the NRA these additional rules should be in the match program.

Granted. And I would never shoot another match at a club that insisted I must change my grip to its final configuration only after I've leveled out on the target. I have a hard enough time keeping a consistent grip as it is.

So I guess the question is - How many shooters would put up with such a rule (finger outside the trigger guard until the sights are on the target) and continue to shoot at a club that enforced it?

I'm sincerely curious. Maybe I'm a minority of one.

[RandomShotz]

When I first started shooting serious targets a couple of years ago, I started with a TOZ which has a much lighter trigger than I was used to from just plinking. Early on, I had a couple of AD's (harmlessly bouncing off the floor of the indoor range) so I just started keeping my finger out of the trigger guard until I raised the gun. That habit carried over when I started shooting bullseye style. I don't know if that impacts my shooting but I don't seem to have any trouble repeating my trigger finger position. It may be just a technique that needs to be practiced. Or I may be just too much of a noob to know the difference.

Roger

[Isabel1130]

Trooper Jake, there is no rule against dry firing before sustained fire. I have seen people do it.

[Trooperjake]

I didn't say there is a rule against it, it's just stupid to do it after the load command is given.
Have you ever done it?
You can't handle your gun till the tower says you can, do you dry fire while the ready commands are given? And then load just before the target turns.

Rethink your answer to me.

[C. Perkins]

I am blessed or cursed with big hands and long fingers.

I cannot keep my trigger finger out of the guard and insert it without a slight grip change.
The only pistol I can do this on is my free pistol(Hammerli FP60).

If I was shooting with a two handed hold then a slight grip change is moot cause I have the other hand to bring it back into position.
Kind of tough only using one hand that is already outstretched.

To Trooper Jake;
You can do anything with the pistol as you so desire with it empty after the command of "you can now handle your guns".
You have lots of time before the load command.
I am far from a newbie and do not feel rushed with a 10 second or so window.
I can hold and aim and dryfire during the start of the command"is the line ready".
I do not lift my pistol until right after the "ready on the right" command.
Just because you dont do it does not make it "stupid".

But hey, what the hell do I know.
I am just a high expert to low master shooter.

Clarence

[Trooperjake]

Keep it up and sooner or later you will eat 50 points, even if you are an expert, or a make believe master.

Hey maybe I'm a make believe high master.

[C. Perkins]

Trooper Jake;

Explain eating 50 points...
Perhaps you did it once or twice ?
This is a real world question, not make believe.
I cannot see it happening, but maybe with your knowledge you could enlighten all of us.

This is what TT is all about, right.
Helping others ?

Clarence

[Trooperjake]

Mr Perkins
No I would never do it. Of all the coaching classes I have taken, no one suggested this. But let us know who taught you to do it.
I have never seen anyone do it. And I doubt they do it where you are.
Hey maybe Brian Zinns or John Zurek will rethink their technique.

I can just see some one after the command to load is given, dry firing away, and then all of a sudden, the targets turn. (Concentration does that to you)
Quick find my mag, load it in 2 seconds, 10 seconds gone, find my target,
Maybe get off two shots.
Was it worth it? I think not.
I am not saying this would happen each time, all it takes is once.

OK I was wrong about fifty points, but at least 30.

And all this topic was supposed to be about was keeping a finger in the trigger guard.

[Isabel1130]

I don't dry fire at the target, before timed and rapid, but I have been known to do it on the bench before I load the magazine. I have eaten 50 points before, but it was sticking an empty mag in the gun, no dry firing involved...:-)

[C. Perkins]

Trooper Jake;

No one taught me to do it and no, I do not do it all the time.
I may do it if I have a grip issue like in the 115 degree summer and my hands are sweating like hell, just to make ure everything feels right before I fire the pistol.

I doubt that I will ask John Zurek anything about what we have discussed tonight when I see him tomarrow at our indoor .22 sectional.
John already has his routine down pat...

As a side note about having all the time in the world.
I have watched John push the button to start the range commands as he is starting to load his magazine with 5 shots and still gets them off with precision.

One of the neatest things I witnessed was that John had a 13 shot alibi with a score of 100-10x

Well, I am done with this now.
Back to the OP's question.

Clarence

[FredB]

Thanks to everyone for their (on topic) replies and advice. Here's a brief follow-up. I couldn't talk to the club member who puts on the matches, because he was the one who instructed me about my finger. So I talked with the range officer, and he just laughed. He said the club had "a bunch of chickens**t rules thought up by a bunch of chickens**t people," and "you should just ignore them because you know how to shoot." I guess I'll still have to watch out for that one guy though.

The RO suggested that because the club member was instructing a new shooter right beside me during the match, he felt he had to make a point about enforcing all the rules including this one. I can understand that, even if it's a dumb rule for Bullseye. I don't like the idea of looking over my shoulder to see if this one guy is there, but the matches are worth it. There's a fly in every ointment, right?

FredB

[jpsIII]

For an experienced match shooter in an indoor-match environment, the triggerguard "rule" is probably not an absolute necessity in a range situation in which many other variables are tightly controlled.

You all may have seen the following at your indoor ranges: Range freshly painted before a big match; 75 shooters shoot a 900 match; zero (0) hits on any painted surface. You do the math. Then, one week of general range use goes by: numerous buckshot-looking scattered hits on columns, deflectors, light-protectors...etc. : ) And, yes, we do *not* allow shotguns on the range. (Might as well, though.)

Oh, and I could add similar results from a recent Junior smallbore rifle tournament with 174 Junior shooters: zero (0) hits on newly painted surfaces.

[Trooperjake]

Clarence
I know John Zurek, have met him at Perry a number of times.
And I am the one who bought his Walther GSP, best deal and best gun I have,
He said he was switching to a Pardini for ISU.
I have shot in Phoenix, probably at your range, just wasn't bullseye.
My son lived in Mesa,
Who knows, we may have met also.
I've been shooting for more than 60 years.
I get around a lot. And do know a thing or 2.
Planning on Perry this year, but as a volunteer, just getting too old for serious matches.

[Dave C.]

The club that runs the match can make any rules they like.
I can choose to follow those rules or to not shoot at that club.
Simple as that.

Dave C.