Speak for yourself, weenie!
I don't have any trouble cocking ANYTHING.
You might look at a used FWB 65 and do a few 16 ounce curls to whip yourself into shape. I shot my personal best with a FWB 90; basically the same gun. Plenty of them floating around.
Least expensive Match quality pistol for beginner?
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I'd say, you already know Tau, buy a Tau 7.
1 of the best co2 matchpistols value for money can buy.
You can even still buy them new.(from 300 euro's upwards)
Dont go for Gamo Compacts, HW or anything like that, those arent real matchpistols.
If you want good bang for buck, than pcp's a nono. Too expensive.
CO2's are all cursed upon so very cheapo!
If springers are an option, Diana LP10. I liked it far better than FWB65.
IZH46's are a good buy too.
1 of the best co2 matchpistols value for money can buy.
You can even still buy them new.(from 300 euro's upwards)
Dont go for Gamo Compacts, HW or anything like that, those arent real matchpistols.
If you want good bang for buck, than pcp's a nono. Too expensive.
CO2's are all cursed upon so very cheapo!
If springers are an option, Diana LP10. I liked it far better than FWB65.
IZH46's are a good buy too.
From the perspective of a senior, I disagree. If working the lever on an old FWB springer or current IZH46 SSP wears out the operator, then they need to visit a health care provider. Same applies if charging these pistols raises the pulse rate enough to affect groups. How in hell do Biathlon competitors even manage to hit the target?Misny wrote:As one senior to another, I'd say get a CO2 or Pre-compressed Air Pneumatic air pistol over one you have to cock. Cocking the pistol tends to wear out oldsters. We have enough trouble holding still. We don't need any handicaps.
Being active in the game back when FWB springers ruled, I observed the decline in their popularity which, IMO, was prompted by their large size, excessive weight and top-heavy balance. The superb SSP's that followed were quickly overrun by aggressive marketing structured to sell PCP's. Curiously, PCP's require numerous additional expenditures for paraphernalia necessary to operate them. As well, the sales potential from continuously pimped upgrades is enormous. No doubt manufacturers were/are grinning all the way to the bank. From a business perspective, the PCP is a brilliant con job.
The load~fire laziness of a PCP does not guarantee that you will be a champion, you'll still need to invest the 10K hours* of practice. You can't buy the ten-ring. It would be a safe bet that only a handful of people who pursue AP have the skill level to out-shoot an IZH46, K58, or any of the FWB SSP's.
*
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)>
Quite true, but you can buy enjoyment.slofyr wrote: ...You can't buy the ten-ring...
By that I mean, if you enjoy owning it, then you are more likely to shoot it more often and so long as you have reasonable technique, you will imporove your performances by doing so.
Although I've been shooting long enough to know that I could probably get the same or similar results with an FWB 65 or IZH46M, I doubt whether I would enjoy owning or shooting either of them as much as I do a modern PCP pistol. This means that I shoot better with a modern PCP pistol.
Well at 51 I'm not quite qualified to argue 'senior' perspectives based upon experience, but I can at least talk about comparing an SSP (46m) and PCP (Pardini K10), each very carefully tailored to suit my hand and preferred wrist angle. I re-carved the interior of the Rink grip for the K10 such that the wrist lock angle is identical to that of my home-made grip on the 46m. They don't quite match in feel at the grip owing to the smaller size of the 'L' Rink grip - my own maple grip is a more wrap-around sort of fit, where I nestle into the Rink, feel more like the pistol is an extension of my hand rather than something I'm holding. But the difference isn't huge enough to make me want to mess up that nice piece of walnut with a bunch of putty; I can shoot them both very comfortably. I've further modified the K10's balance with an aluminum weight on a steel shaft going from the trigger guard forward such that both pistols are within 10 grams of the much reduced weight of the Baikal, and about a 1/4" balance point difference. Virtually identical, considering how different these two were as stock.
Since getting the two pistols so close to each other in fit and balance, I've steadily moved away from shooting the K10. Sure it's easier dropping in a pellet, not having to pump the cocking arm, just loading and shooting. But the physical effort to cock the 46m is invisible to me after putting more than 40,000 shots through it. Has been so for a long time. I actually have to pay attention to the process to notice that I'm cocking it. When shooting a session I never notice that it's cocked when I load the pellet, just assume it is because I MUST have cocked it, that's what I do, right? So if I load a pellet then get called to go to the phone or whatever, I lift the breech block for safety and go do whatever, then come back to the pistol... and have to toggle the cocking arm a little to see if it's charged, as I never remember if I did that already. (Of course if there's a kid around I discharge the pistol for safety!)
With the Pardini I find there is no more nor less perceived effort in loading. When going back to the K10 for a session (more and more this is just to keep myself in tune with that pistol) I might reach for a cocking lever a couple of times, then I stop doing that. With going back to the 46m I might accidentally dry fire a shot or two before remembering the routine and manually cocking it. Then it's forgotten again.
This is with a fairly dramatically shortened cocking lever, one of my exercises in weight reduction. I find the roundly polished aluminum arm terminating just about 1 centimetre behind the trigger to be very comfortable compared to the roughly 5cm longer wood-blocked arm, which seemed to cause a bit of bruising in my palm. Spreading out the force of closing the arm over my whole palm makes for reduced perceived effort. And this pistol was never very hard to charge, so now it's downright easy. I could imagine cocking an SSP might be challenging, even impossible in cases where arthritis had harmed the elbow joint, but with a reasonably fluid joint and modest strength, and of course a good technique which takes best advantage of the body's geometry, there's really no need to worry about this function. I put my right elbow against my ribs/torso, turn the pistol so the flat side of the grip faces up, then cock the arm in a plane parallel to the floor with my left hand. It's a breeze, really. Doing the same thing with both elbows free is more physically challenging because it's awkward, but still not a huge deal.
Since getting the two pistols so close to each other in fit and balance, I've steadily moved away from shooting the K10. Sure it's easier dropping in a pellet, not having to pump the cocking arm, just loading and shooting. But the physical effort to cock the 46m is invisible to me after putting more than 40,000 shots through it. Has been so for a long time. I actually have to pay attention to the process to notice that I'm cocking it. When shooting a session I never notice that it's cocked when I load the pellet, just assume it is because I MUST have cocked it, that's what I do, right? So if I load a pellet then get called to go to the phone or whatever, I lift the breech block for safety and go do whatever, then come back to the pistol... and have to toggle the cocking arm a little to see if it's charged, as I never remember if I did that already. (Of course if there's a kid around I discharge the pistol for safety!)
With the Pardini I find there is no more nor less perceived effort in loading. When going back to the K10 for a session (more and more this is just to keep myself in tune with that pistol) I might reach for a cocking lever a couple of times, then I stop doing that. With going back to the 46m I might accidentally dry fire a shot or two before remembering the routine and manually cocking it. Then it's forgotten again.
This is with a fairly dramatically shortened cocking lever, one of my exercises in weight reduction. I find the roundly polished aluminum arm terminating just about 1 centimetre behind the trigger to be very comfortable compared to the roughly 5cm longer wood-blocked arm, which seemed to cause a bit of bruising in my palm. Spreading out the force of closing the arm over my whole palm makes for reduced perceived effort. And this pistol was never very hard to charge, so now it's downright easy. I could imagine cocking an SSP might be challenging, even impossible in cases where arthritis had harmed the elbow joint, but with a reasonably fluid joint and modest strength, and of course a good technique which takes best advantage of the body's geometry, there's really no need to worry about this function. I put my right elbow against my ribs/torso, turn the pistol so the flat side of the grip faces up, then cock the arm in a plane parallel to the floor with my left hand. It's a breeze, really. Doing the same thing with both elbows free is more physically challenging because it's awkward, but still not a huge deal.
C'mon Gerard, don'tcha know that only a electronic triggered PCP will allow the aged and feeble members of this form to break 500 on a good day? (sarcasm font)
Tee hee .....you sure have a longwinded way of saying you agree with me.
Tee hee .....you sure have a longwinded way of saying you agree with me.
Last edited by Rover on Thu Jan 03, 2013 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I don't mind being in perfect agreement with you Rover, so long as you're not being a redneck reactionary f***nut (insert appropriate smiley here, if such a smiley exists). But seriously, weight lifting and other training has shown fantastic results in older folks, preventing any number of maladies including an early demise. Pumping some 5 pound dumbbells to make use of an SSP easier is hardly asking too much, even if a shooter is 80 years old. And yeah, I have trouble with concision. One of my heroes, Noam Chomsky, has a similar difficulty with brevity, though every word be as concise as a laser.
Enjoyment doesnt necessarily have anything to do with achievements or results. Imo, enjoyment=FUN.
I have much more fun plinking my Webley Tempest at the 6 yrds or my oldie Webley mk3 at the belltarget, than éither of my co2 or pcp matchpistols ór matchrifles.
Allthough, no doubt, those áre more accurate in this case, and far easier to shoot.
So you cant buy the 10 ring, or whatever, I agree with totally, and that you cán buy enjoyment I agree with too, I just dont agree it has to have ánything to do with accuracy or achievements perse.
Sure I can paperpunch ragged holes with my Tau 7 match all days, stillits not the fun of the tempest..
Anyway, offtopic.
I have much more fun plinking my Webley Tempest at the 6 yrds or my oldie Webley mk3 at the belltarget, than éither of my co2 or pcp matchpistols ór matchrifles.
Allthough, no doubt, those áre more accurate in this case, and far easier to shoot.
So you cant buy the 10 ring, or whatever, I agree with totally, and that you cán buy enjoyment I agree with too, I just dont agree it has to have ánything to do with accuracy or achievements perse.
Sure I can paperpunch ragged holes with my Tau 7 match all days, stillits not the fun of the tempest..
Anyway, offtopic.
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luftskytter
- Posts: 106
- Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2009 9:50 am
- Location: Norway
I've never seen it or tried it, but this seems to be good value for money:
http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air ... stol.shtml
http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air ... stol.shtml
Off topic sure, but I largely agree yana. I often pull out the Tempest .22" and see what I can do at 4 metres into my putty trap in the workshop. It's quiet and powerful and a real handful to shoot accurately, and if I'm focused well I can keep all shots within about 1/2" at that range. Hardly match grade, but fun. But not as fun as my even less accurate Webley Senior from the 1950's. If I'm on top form I can hold about a 1" group with that pistol. Kicks like a mule as air pistols go, and the grip isn't anything close to naturally ergonomic, but it's just such a tiny, sweetly made little pistol and I've tuned the trigger so smoothly... it's a joy to shoot. I get a bigger smile from hitting 10 shots in a row inside a 1" circle at 4 metres with that thing than I do scoring a 97 target with my match pistols.
But it's a different kind of enjoyment. The Webleys are more about getting in touch with the kind of joy I felt as a kid with an air rifle, just out plinking or hunting for the day and sometimes not missing a single shot all day. The match pistols are more for helping me find inner stability, calm, for rooting out whatever's on my mind and dealing with it effectively such that I have no obstacles to near-perfect concentration. Match shooting is a more solemn kind of enjoyment to me at least, a meditation. And there can be some cross-over, like the time I took my match pistols along to go plinking with my brother and his kids and my own little boy in the woods. At 20 metres to 30 metres the Pardini felt just as fun as a Webley, because I could usually hit even tiny targets at ridiculous ranges but wasn't thinking about this informal demolition of Lifesavers and pop cans in the same way. I've heard from another match pistol shooter here that he never uses his tools to play... and appreciate the sentiment, but in my way of thinking about it, playing is healthy, and I'm not about to become confused about formal shooting.
In fact shooting the Webley pistols invariably brings a short period of superior trigger control to using a match pistol, as those triggers are so much less precise that my finger discipline becomes much more refined to compensate. In the long term, well, we'll see what contribution Webley makes to my match results.
But it's a different kind of enjoyment. The Webleys are more about getting in touch with the kind of joy I felt as a kid with an air rifle, just out plinking or hunting for the day and sometimes not missing a single shot all day. The match pistols are more for helping me find inner stability, calm, for rooting out whatever's on my mind and dealing with it effectively such that I have no obstacles to near-perfect concentration. Match shooting is a more solemn kind of enjoyment to me at least, a meditation. And there can be some cross-over, like the time I took my match pistols along to go plinking with my brother and his kids and my own little boy in the woods. At 20 metres to 30 metres the Pardini felt just as fun as a Webley, because I could usually hit even tiny targets at ridiculous ranges but wasn't thinking about this informal demolition of Lifesavers and pop cans in the same way. I've heard from another match pistol shooter here that he never uses his tools to play... and appreciate the sentiment, but in my way of thinking about it, playing is healthy, and I'm not about to become confused about formal shooting.
In fact shooting the Webley pistols invariably brings a short period of superior trigger control to using a match pistol, as those triggers are so much less precise that my finger discipline becomes much more refined to compensate. In the long term, well, we'll see what contribution Webley makes to my match results.
I did some research on the Air Arms Alpha-proj pistol, and decided to pass on it. The pistol has good ergonomics and trigger, accuracy is acceptable (better than a human can hold), but the gun comes with an ambidextrous grip to start, making a new grip purchase necessary. Also, the air cylinder is not easily replaceable, and is very small, meaning that essentially it must be pumped for every 60-shot string. For the money, the 46M is (IMO, of course) a better buy.luftskytter wrote:I've never seen it or tried it, but this seems to be good value for money:
http://www.solware.co.uk/air-pistol-air ... stol.shtml
Jim
Thanks to all for your continued input. I have learned a lot and continue to benefit from the opinions expressed. I continue to weight my options, but I think I have narrowed my search down between the IZH-46M and the Tau 7. Being left handed, I am struggling with finding a Left Hand Grip for the Tau. Kent.
Last edited by kbergphd on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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climbandboulder
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:52 pm
- Location: Chandler, AZ
I am fairly new to AP and am also a lefty. After going down pretty much the same road as you , I settled on a Pardini K58. I love it. Despite the manual labor associated with cocking it, it feels like a part of me when I shoot it.
As a beginner, I like having a manually pressurized pistol, as it has made me more cognizant of my breath and heart rate. Some day, I'll probably upgrade to CA, but I'm in no hurry and may never get rid of the K58.
It took a couple of months to find it. I ended up buying a righty pistol and getting lefty grips separately. I got them both on this forum.
TargetTalk is a great bunch of people with completely divergent opinions... and they are all 100% correct 100% of the time.
As a beginner, I like having a manually pressurized pistol, as it has made me more cognizant of my breath and heart rate. Some day, I'll probably upgrade to CA, but I'm in no hurry and may never get rid of the K58.
It took a couple of months to find it. I ended up buying a righty pistol and getting lefty grips separately. I got them both on this forum.
TargetTalk is a great bunch of people with completely divergent opinions... and they are all 100% correct 100% of the time.
"Some day, I'll probably upgrade to CA, but I'm in no hurry and may never get rid of the K58."
It won't be an upgrade; more like a (expensive) lateral shift.
BTW An air pistol match is coming up at PRGC.
http://www.phoenixrodandgun.org/Calenda ... n_2013.htm
Be there or be square. You can't expect to improve your skills without the mocking laughter of your betters.
It won't be an upgrade; more like a (expensive) lateral shift.
BTW An air pistol match is coming up at PRGC.
http://www.phoenixrodandgun.org/Calenda ... n_2013.htm
Be there or be square. You can't expect to improve your skills without the mocking laughter of your betters.
Yr quite right to skip the Alfa. Its not worth its $$ imo. In co2, yes, but even thán its balance is weird, VERY light (all alu), grip is FAR too thin, and the trigger is less than the Tau's.
In pcp, the gripreservoir is simply too small.
I've seen a leftie grip for a Tau 7 off late, but where was it..druckluftwaffenonline.de maybe. Otherwise, check the Tau website.
I never liked the cocking cycle of ssp, its the wrong way around..
PS Yea, I can shoot ragged holes at 6 yrds with my stupid Tempest, they're LOADS of fun! My record is 1 cm group edge-edge, of 5shots.
In pcp, the gripreservoir is simply too small.
I've seen a leftie grip for a Tau 7 off late, but where was it..druckluftwaffenonline.de maybe. Otherwise, check the Tau website.
I never liked the cocking cycle of ssp, its the wrong way around..
PS Yea, I can shoot ragged holes at 6 yrds with my stupid Tempest, they're LOADS of fun! My record is 1 cm group edge-edge, of 5shots.
Gerard - I'm curious about how much weight reduction off with the shorter cocking lever - did you happen to weigh it?
Do you happen to have a picture of what it looks like now?
Thanks for your helpful posts!
Do you happen to have a picture of what it looks like now?
Thanks for your helpful posts!
Gerard wrote:...a fairly dramatically shortened cocking lever, one of my exercises in weight reduction. I find the roundly polished aluminum arm terminating just about 1 centimetre behind the trigger to be very comfortable compared to the roughly 5cm longer wood-blocked arm...
Sorry but I don't have information available to compare the stock lever weight to what mine is now. I cut the lever's length twice. The first time left the lever end about 1/2" short of the palm rest front edge, and I'd added a smaller wooden pad to that thinking it would be comfortable. Much more recently I cut it a couple of inches shorter and obviously left off the wooden pad. Weighing the originally cut pieces I find the aluminum arm section and original wooden part to be about 15 grams. Extrapolating from there, taking into consideration the extra aluminum shortening and the rounding off of the remaining arm which was considerable, I'd say the total reduction to the arm is between 20 and 25 grams.jr wrote:Gerard - I'm curious about how much weight reduction off with the shorter cocking lever - did you happen to weigh it?
Do you happen to have a picture of what it looks like now?
Here's a fresh version of my modified 46m along with the stock pistol. The most recent modification involved adding a tiny brass 'L' shaped piece into the slot of the trigger and building an epoxy putty trigger pad around that. Wanted it to feel more like my Pardini's trigger, including the modification I made on the K10 such that the trigger is canted to the right quite a bit more than the Baikal's stock angle though the point of contact is still centred in line with the barrel. The two pistols feel more alike than ever.
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HibouAttentif
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:14 pm
- Location: Ontario, Canada
If the OP is a lefty then the best bet is the Tau-7 because you can actually find (if you look around) a left hand grip for the Tau. The trigger on the Izzy is canted for a right hand shooter. Furthermore, since the OP already shoots a Tau rifle he is probably set up for bulk which makes shooting the Tau pretty cheap. I have both pistols, and while the Izzy has (i find) a trigger that is a bit better than the Tau, the lighter weight of the Tau makes it my go-to pistol more often.
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