Happy New Year everyone,
I am a Senior who shoots a Tau Brno 200 rifle in an Olympic-style Airgun club. Not knowing anything about air pistols, I was wondering how much it would cost to get a good used match quality air pistol to start out with. Thanks, Kent.
Least expensive Match quality pistol for beginner?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, David Levene, Spencer, Richard H
Forum rules
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
If you wish to make a donation to this forum's operation , it would be greatly appreciated.
https://www.paypal.com/paypalme/targettalk?yours=true
Least expensive Match quality pistol for beginner?
Last edited by kbergphd on Tue Jan 01, 2013 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Least expensive Match quality pistol for beginner?
Yes, thanks for helping me clarify that. I edited my original entry to reflect that.
I am returning to pistol shooting after some years off. I needed an air pistol without having to sell the house. I purchased a new IZH-46 for a little over $400US, but they are common under $500US. The IZH was my first air pistol. My next gun was a Steyr LP10. The disturbing thing about the Steyr is that my average score didn't go up by more than a few points, even though I paid almost 4 times as much for it. They say you can't buy points, and that is unfortunately true.
The IZH is a single stroke pneumatic. You don't need CO2 bottles, high pressure air pumps or SCUBA tanks... of course you know that from your rifle shooting.
The IZH is accurate and with some grip work, a nice gun to shoot. What you are going to find with pistol shooting is that it is more shooter than equipment. It is just you and the gun... no rolls, mats, pants, boots, jackets, gloves, slings, or what ever else those guys haul in their carts. When a pistol shooter shoots a 6, its never the ammo , and certainly not the gun.
Certainly, if you can get one for a good price and can afford the air support, a used CO2 or early PCP gun would be a cool starter, and if you've got more bucks than this retired old fart, a Steyr LP10 or Morini 162 is capable of taking you to the Olympics.
Larry
The IZH is a single stroke pneumatic. You don't need CO2 bottles, high pressure air pumps or SCUBA tanks... of course you know that from your rifle shooting.
The IZH is accurate and with some grip work, a nice gun to shoot. What you are going to find with pistol shooting is that it is more shooter than equipment. It is just you and the gun... no rolls, mats, pants, boots, jackets, gloves, slings, or what ever else those guys haul in their carts. When a pistol shooter shoots a 6, its never the ammo , and certainly not the gun.
Certainly, if you can get one for a good price and can afford the air support, a used CO2 or early PCP gun would be a cool starter, and if you've got more bucks than this retired old fart, a Steyr LP10 or Morini 162 is capable of taking you to the Olympics.
Larry
I second the suggestion for an IZH-46M. They are available used for around $400. That's what I would get, if I were starting out. Alternately, if you could find a Gamo Compact, I would consider that, as well. Fewer Compacts were imported than IZH-46M, so they're harder to find, but would likely be cheaper.
When I was starting out, I picked up a Pardini K58. Being a Pardini, these have much better fit and finish than an IZH, but are commensurately more expensive on the used market. It's also a single stroke pneumatic pistol, and the ease of use suited me well for 7 years on-and-off use. Now, I shoot air pistol much more, and I've upgraded. (It's not for sale)
Another option is a Daisy 717. They're about $160 new. They're not really competitive pistols, and can't really be made into a better pistol. However, for beginner or junior use, they're fine. If you aren't sure how much you want to shoot pistol, they're a great way to go. You'll learn a lot about pistol shooting while owning one, even if you quickly have to upgrade to a better pistol, if you get into even casual competition.
One more option: our host, Pilkguns, has two Steyr LP1 CO2 pistols for sale on the Buy/Sale/Trade forum for $700. These were top flight competition guns 15-20 years ago, and more than adequate for anything you would want to do with them. The only issue is that Pilkguns has small or medium used grips to go with them. Although you could buy new grips, at that point the total price would be too high to justify. CO2 works just as well as compressed air, and is much cheaper to set up.
Good luck!
-John
When I was starting out, I picked up a Pardini K58. Being a Pardini, these have much better fit and finish than an IZH, but are commensurately more expensive on the used market. It's also a single stroke pneumatic pistol, and the ease of use suited me well for 7 years on-and-off use. Now, I shoot air pistol much more, and I've upgraded. (It's not for sale)
Another option is a Daisy 717. They're about $160 new. They're not really competitive pistols, and can't really be made into a better pistol. However, for beginner or junior use, they're fine. If you aren't sure how much you want to shoot pistol, they're a great way to go. You'll learn a lot about pistol shooting while owning one, even if you quickly have to upgrade to a better pistol, if you get into even casual competition.
One more option: our host, Pilkguns, has two Steyr LP1 CO2 pistols for sale on the Buy/Sale/Trade forum for $700. These were top flight competition guns 15-20 years ago, and more than adequate for anything you would want to do with them. The only issue is that Pilkguns has small or medium used grips to go with them. Although you could buy new grips, at that point the total price would be too high to justify. CO2 works just as well as compressed air, and is much cheaper to set up.
Good luck!
-John
While the Daisy 717 or 747 might be suitable for an affordable introductory air pistol, from what I've heard the grips and general geometry aren't favourable for formal target use. The Gamo Compact is even less suitable, as the grip angle is wrong and the velocity is too low even when carefully tuned to cut consistently clean holes in targets. You'll want something shooting at least about 430fps, preferably above 450fps to make accurate scoring of targets easy.
I'll third the motion for a 46m, as this pistol is more than accurate enough and very easy to operate. The one down side most 46m users cite is the balance; it's a heavier pistol with a bit more weight up front than any other. Makes it somewhat tiring to use. But with a proper grip put on it (or a lot of putty and carving on the existing Baikal grip) a lot of this problem disappears, especially with close attention to making the palm shelf a snug fit against the bottom of the hand. There's a fellow selling synthetic grip blanks for the 46m here on TT and while these also need a lot of work to fit them for an individual shooter, they start with the profound advantage of having a much stronger grip angle so as to improve 'wrist lock' which helps deal with the weight issue. If you wish, it's also possible to strip off a few parts to save weight in front of the hand. The barrel clamp and much of the cocking linkage can be removed without compromising the gun's integrity - the auto-cocking linkage is often unreliable on these anyway, so manually pulling up the breech transfer port arm makes more sense to me anyway.
I'll third the motion for a 46m, as this pistol is more than accurate enough and very easy to operate. The one down side most 46m users cite is the balance; it's a heavier pistol with a bit more weight up front than any other. Makes it somewhat tiring to use. But with a proper grip put on it (or a lot of putty and carving on the existing Baikal grip) a lot of this problem disappears, especially with close attention to making the palm shelf a snug fit against the bottom of the hand. There's a fellow selling synthetic grip blanks for the 46m here on TT and while these also need a lot of work to fit them for an individual shooter, they start with the profound advantage of having a much stronger grip angle so as to improve 'wrist lock' which helps deal with the weight issue. If you wish, it's also possible to strip off a few parts to save weight in front of the hand. The barrel clamp and much of the cocking linkage can be removed without compromising the gun's integrity - the auto-cocking linkage is often unreliable on these anyway, so manually pulling up the breech transfer port arm makes more sense to me anyway.
John is being a good guy and trying to help in your quest for a low cost AP, and I agree that the Daisy could be an option. I remember, though, when the 717 sold new at discounters for $35. Back then we tried them and quickly determined they were another toy from Daisy. Even the 'serious' 777 version was not worthy. It's a cheaply built sheet metal pistol that is clunky and top-heavy. IMO, don't start at this point, spend your money elsewhere.John C wrote:Another option is a Daisy 717. They're about $160 new....
You cannot go wrong buying an Izzy. It's a large pistol, but has a low barrel and sight line, fine trigger, and consistent accuracy. An IZH46 with Rink grip is a very capable tool.
The next step up in price for an SSP would be the FAS 604. Airguns of Arizona and Larry Carter sell it. It has less mass and weight and is better balanced than the Izzy so is easier to hold, and it's very well made.
Can someone put me in contact with this fellow? I didn't find it with search. I was going to order some walnut tomorrow, but I'd like to check the blanks out.Gerard wrote: There's a fellow selling synthetic grip blanks for the 46m here on TT and while these also need a lot of work to fit them for an individual shooter, they start with the profound advantage of having a much stronger grip angle so as to improve 'wrist lock' which helps deal with the weight issue.
As for the Daisey guns, I used one for a few hours in the beginning. The trigger was god awful and it wouldn't hold zero if you set it down on the bench.
Larry
-
Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
I think the IZH is a very accurate gun, and would recommend it without reservations, except for one.
It is quite heavy compared to some of the other guns, and if you are older and like to practice a lot, you may start having issues with either your wrist, your elbow, or your shoulder. I have heard the Walther is one of the lightest and might give you an extended shooting career, if that is what you are looking for.
Daryl Szarenski told me he ended up pulling all the weight off his guns, leaving a naked barrel after blowing out his shoulder some years ago.
It is quite heavy compared to some of the other guns, and if you are older and like to practice a lot, you may start having issues with either your wrist, your elbow, or your shoulder. I have heard the Walther is one of the lightest and might give you an extended shooting career, if that is what you are looking for.
Daryl Szarenski told me he ended up pulling all the weight off his guns, leaving a naked barrel after blowing out his shoulder some years ago.
[EDIT - I just stumbled across the thread which I couldn't find via site search nor Google search]funtoz wrote:Can someone put me in contact with this fellow? I didn't find it with search. I was going to order some walnut tomorrow, but I'd like to check the blanks out.
So here's the main thread featuring Jetter's grips:
/viewtopic.php?t=32349
Some good pictures and discussion there.
Last edited by Gerard on Wed Jan 02, 2013 4:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
J-team;j-team wrote:Some reading regarding the Daisy717...
I take back what I said about not being able to make the 717 into a competitive pistol. That is a great article! May I ask where it came from?
Gerard;
My very brief experience with the Gamo Compact was more favorable than yours. Considering they're going for about $150, used, on the Yellow Classified forum, compared to $100-120 for a 717, I think the extra $30 is well spent on the upgrade to the Compact. I found it to be quite accurate and shootable, but perhaps the pistol just fit me better. I didn't have a problem with the grip angle or pellet velocity. The trigger was MUCH better than the 717 and more easily tunable. Regardless, having read a lot of your posts, especially about your work on the IZH, I have a ton of respect for your work and knowledge of the platform. It's a damn shame you don't offer your work commercially.
-John
Sorry if I gave the impression I'd used a Gamo Compact, as I have not. I was going from comments I've read from a couple of sources, and if those were mistaken then by all means one could consider the Compact as a viable option. Of course the rather more extreme grip rake I use isn't for everyone; I've heard a couple of shooters say they've developed elbow problems when using such a steep rake, so this must vary per individual arm conditioning and/or joint geometry.
As for offering pistol modifications for a fee, unfortunately I just wouldn't have the time. I'm barely able to keep up with demand for my work with violin family instruments, especially doublebasses, and after about two decades doing a lot of restoration and setup work it's time to shift more seriously into making new instruments so I will have even less spare time from now on. Going to pick up wood for 4 doublebasses this month... it's going to be difficult to find time even for 10 metre training, never mind pistol mods. Oh well, the work is what's most important for me. And my shooting seems to be progressing nicely the past few months anyway, just putting in a half hour per day, so no real complaints there.
I hope the pictures and explanations I've posted here and on CAF regarding modifications of the Baikal 46m will at least be of some help to those interested in lightening up their own pistols and making them work better, or perhaps passing such information along to friendly gunsmiths to have such work done. Nothing overly complicated involved. The trickiest bit is turning down the cylinder thickness, and that's a judgment call anyway as the weight savings isn't all that much. Here's the thread with my most thorough explanation of mods I've done on the 46m, somewhere down the page:
/viewtopic.php?t=36789
As for offering pistol modifications for a fee, unfortunately I just wouldn't have the time. I'm barely able to keep up with demand for my work with violin family instruments, especially doublebasses, and after about two decades doing a lot of restoration and setup work it's time to shift more seriously into making new instruments so I will have even less spare time from now on. Going to pick up wood for 4 doublebasses this month... it's going to be difficult to find time even for 10 metre training, never mind pistol mods. Oh well, the work is what's most important for me. And my shooting seems to be progressing nicely the past few months anyway, just putting in a half hour per day, so no real complaints there.
I hope the pictures and explanations I've posted here and on CAF regarding modifications of the Baikal 46m will at least be of some help to those interested in lightening up their own pistols and making them work better, or perhaps passing such information along to friendly gunsmiths to have such work done. Nothing overly complicated involved. The trickiest bit is turning down the cylinder thickness, and that's a judgment call anyway as the weight savings isn't all that much. Here's the thread with my most thorough explanation of mods I've done on the 46m, somewhere down the page:
/viewtopic.php?t=36789
-
kevinweiho
- Posts: 949
- Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 12:44 pm
- Location: Costa Rica, Central America
I also have a Gamo Compact which I feel is a very good gun to start off with.
The trigger really needs to be tuned and the grips slightly modified to fit the user. It lacks the refinements of the IZH-46M, but nonetheless it can hold its own in precision.
Miguel Salvador Giménez Carpena using a Gamo Compact, shot a score of 575 (60 shots) in the Spain air pistol Championships of 2006. He was facing competitors who had LP10's, Morini's, Walther's, etc. and at the end he was in second place...
This shows that the gun will not make you the winner or get you the extra points, but what really matters is how prepared the shooter is.
The trigger really needs to be tuned and the grips slightly modified to fit the user. It lacks the refinements of the IZH-46M, but nonetheless it can hold its own in precision.
Miguel Salvador Giménez Carpena using a Gamo Compact, shot a score of 575 (60 shots) in the Spain air pistol Championships of 2006. He was facing competitors who had LP10's, Morini's, Walther's, etc. and at the end he was in second place...
This shows that the gun will not make you the winner or get you the extra points, but what really matters is how prepared the shooter is.
Thanks to all who weighted in...Rover, Larry, rmca, slofyr, John C, Gerald, Isabel1130, j-team, and kevinweiho. Incrediblely good information, advice, and wisedom about starting out and the important things to think about, when making the decision, which is important for me since I don't have unlimited disposable funds. I have a lot of thinking to do. Thanks for all your help. Kent.