To set the stage... My daughter (age 14) is shooting international air rifle (40 shots standing). She has progressed fairly rapidly and is currently averaging around 375 in practice, often bumping up into the low 380's with a 384 as her current personal best.
When I watch her shoot she has a slight side to side body sway, although it is much improved from a few months ago. As she goes through her shot process she will suddenly stop the sway for 2 to 3 seconds. Most of the time the shot breaks during this pause and is almost always a deep 10. Sometimes she will break the shot while she is still swaying, other times she breaks the shot just as the sway returns. When that happens I can always predict where the shot will land based on the direction of the sway. Sometimes this results in just a low 10, more often it will be a 9 or occasionally an 8 or even a rare 7.
I am trying to come up with a drill to help her. Very few shooters, and especially one her age has completely overcome body sway. I am thinking if I can extend the "sway pause" she has by another 2 seconds, she will always have time to get the shot off during the pause.
The problem I am running into is this: She is not aware of either the sway or the pause. Even though it is very obvious to me watching, she says she does not see it in the foresight. Apparently she is moving the rifle in time with the sway so her sight picture remains stable to her. How do I get her aware of something she does not see, without messing up the rest of her shot process?
Yesterday, after a couple of disappointing targets, I talked to her about it and cautioned her to be aware of the sway and the pause. She then stepped up and shot 7 10.9/10.8s in a row. Maybe just being aware it is happening will help, but I would really like a specific drill she can work on a few minutes every day.
Any of you pro's out there have any suggestions for dad??
Body sway in standing...... solutions?
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Well, there are three things you/she can do. Start by optimizing the shooting position for postural control. Less base sway will give you a larger window for taking the shot, which is what you're looking for. Also make sure the position is set up correctly each time (unconscious adjustments to overcome a faulty setup could show as larger sway)
Focus on shifts in balance and looking for that moment of stillness and only take the shot when in equilibrium. Abandon shots that are not well balanced. The lesson to learn is knowing what causes what and make the necessary adjustments. It seems like you tried taking that road and it worked?
Balance oriented exercises in position.
Many (if not all) have some sway naturally, even in the top. Have a look at some ISSF final videos and you can see the sway (it can be hard with less streaming quality though). It then stops for a few seconds (different length for different shooters) during which the shots breaks. I have even seen some purposely inducing sway to feel the weight shift which "resets" the feeling and prepares them for the upcoming task. Of course this is early in the shot process, but still interesting.
Focus on shifts in balance and looking for that moment of stillness and only take the shot when in equilibrium. Abandon shots that are not well balanced. The lesson to learn is knowing what causes what and make the necessary adjustments. It seems like you tried taking that road and it worked?
Balance oriented exercises in position.
Many (if not all) have some sway naturally, even in the top. Have a look at some ISSF final videos and you can see the sway (it can be hard with less streaming quality though). It then stops for a few seconds (different length for different shooters) during which the shots breaks. I have even seen some purposely inducing sway to feel the weight shift which "resets" the feeling and prepares them for the upcoming task. Of course this is early in the shot process, but still interesting.
When training, do it for one thing at a time. Don't try to correct an unbalanced position while actually shooting.
Work on balance without shooting cloths, in a standing position, without the rifle. If the position is solid, and remains so, try it with eyes closed. Once that position is solid and stays so, add the rifle.
Once she can hold a solid position with the rifle add the clothing a piece at a time. Sometimes you will find the fit of some of the heavier non-flexible clothing induces movement, by forcing the body into an unstable position.
During all this be sure her eyes remain on a level plane. Looking from behind you can watch for her ear to stay level.
Good luck.
Work on balance without shooting cloths, in a standing position, without the rifle. If the position is solid, and remains so, try it with eyes closed. Once that position is solid and stays so, add the rifle.
Once she can hold a solid position with the rifle add the clothing a piece at a time. Sometimes you will find the fit of some of the heavier non-flexible clothing induces movement, by forcing the body into an unstable position.
During all this be sure her eyes remain on a level plane. Looking from behind you can watch for her ear to stay level.
Good luck.
Body sway
Thanks Pat and EJ, along with others who responded by PM. I am trying to break this down to a drill that focuses on sway. All the suggestions are appreciated and I will try to work them into our training.
I think I have accomplished the first major step by just getting her aware that it is happening. Today I had her spend some time dry firing and paying close attention to sway. Now that she is looking for it, she is doing a much better job of getting the shot off during the pause, and re-setting when the shot does not happen in time. I was a little concerned that having her "look" for body sway might interfere with her ability to properly execute the remainder of her shot plan, but she seems to be handling it well. Based on some of your comments, I may break this down further and eliminate the dry fire portion and just have her get the rifle into position, hold, identify the null point of body sway, then lower the rifle.
I had her key off her scope/stand with her off eye, as well as feel for the changes in pressure on her feet. We spent a couple of hours working on this today and she really caught on quickly. Her normal sequence is to settle in with the rifle, sway back then forward, then back to center, pause (take the shot) then sway forward again. She is now recognizing when she does not get the shot off in time and forward sway starts up. She aborted several shots, took another breath and went back in and got it off during the pause. We will focus on this for a few weeks and I think it will really help to reduce that occasional right to left flier.
She also does 15 to 20 minutes a day of balance training on wobble blocks while in position. I know there is a thread here that questions the effectiveness of wobble blocks. It seems to help her, and the way I see it, it can't hurt.
Thanks again, any other comments or suggestions are welcome!
I think I have accomplished the first major step by just getting her aware that it is happening. Today I had her spend some time dry firing and paying close attention to sway. Now that she is looking for it, she is doing a much better job of getting the shot off during the pause, and re-setting when the shot does not happen in time. I was a little concerned that having her "look" for body sway might interfere with her ability to properly execute the remainder of her shot plan, but she seems to be handling it well. Based on some of your comments, I may break this down further and eliminate the dry fire portion and just have her get the rifle into position, hold, identify the null point of body sway, then lower the rifle.
I had her key off her scope/stand with her off eye, as well as feel for the changes in pressure on her feet. We spent a couple of hours working on this today and she really caught on quickly. Her normal sequence is to settle in with the rifle, sway back then forward, then back to center, pause (take the shot) then sway forward again. She is now recognizing when she does not get the shot off in time and forward sway starts up. She aborted several shots, took another breath and went back in and got it off during the pause. We will focus on this for a few weeks and I think it will really help to reduce that occasional right to left flier.
She also does 15 to 20 minutes a day of balance training on wobble blocks while in position. I know there is a thread here that questions the effectiveness of wobble blocks. It seems to help her, and the way I see it, it can't hurt.
Thanks again, any other comments or suggestions are welcome!
The basics to control balance;
- Forward shiftet pelvis
- a natural position
- create a reference point to check balance while in position (the high stands in ISSF competition are used for a reason!). Other referencepoints could be the monitir, waterbottle, toolbix.
Using these our shooters are able to, with about 2 hours training each week, to stand still for 10 seconds on target. Additionally MTB is great for balance. Avoid stretching and runnning.
- Forward shiftet pelvis
- a natural position
- create a reference point to check balance while in position (the high stands in ISSF competition are used for a reason!). Other referencepoints could be the monitir, waterbottle, toolbix.
Using these our shooters are able to, with about 2 hours training each week, to stand still for 10 seconds on target. Additionally MTB is great for balance. Avoid stretching and runnning.
sway
Thanks BM. So you are saying the visual que off a nearby object is an important part of managing sway? Until just recently I have not put much emphasis on that. Sounds like we need to focus a bit more on it. A scope stand is an obvious item. You mentioned things like a water bottle. It seems that a bottle would be too low for the off eye to see without having to actually "look" for it? Isn't the rifle stand on the wrong side to be useful, you need to use non-aiming eye.... right? Sorry for all the questions, I'm new at this and trying to learn!!
You can use either object, simple because you don't really focus on it, you 'detect' it. It's like the windflag; you aim at the target but you're still able to detect changes in the position of the flag. There must be a decent English phrase for it....
It's similar like driving a car; you focus straight forward on the road and still detect what happens on the left and right.
It's similar like driving a car; you focus straight forward on the road and still detect what happens on the left and right.
I think the phrase your looking for is "peripheral vision". Shooting textbooks recommend having a long, vertical object(like a scope stand) in your peripheral vision to use as a reference point when in position.BM wrote:You can use either object, simple because you don't really focus on it, you 'detect' it. It's like the windflag; you aim at the target but you're still able to detect changes in the position of the flag. There must be a decent English phrase for it....
It's similar like driving a car; you focus straight forward on the road and still detect what happens on the left and right.
I have to disagree with an object in view to manage sway. An object in view can be valuable in getting set up, but once the shot process begins the conscious must be on either the sights or the trigger (your choice- mine is sights). There more you try to split your attention, the worse will be your final outcome.
Balance needs to be an innate thing, eventually it becomes "automatic" and the shot process will stop if the body "feels" wrong (the inner position).
There have been studies showing "quiet eye" time (the longer the better) is determinate of higher scores. Watching something other than the sights reults in lots of refocusing, and no "quiet eye".
Balance needs to be an innate thing, eventually it becomes "automatic" and the shot process will stop if the body "feels" wrong (the inner position).
There have been studies showing "quiet eye" time (the longer the better) is determinate of higher scores. Watching something other than the sights reults in lots of refocusing, and no "quiet eye".
Sway
My wife is 62 and an ex GB shooter, she shoots for fun but to a similar standard as your daughter, she is also very keen to improve get back to her peak and does train quite hard, and her problem is also sway.
I September we went to MEC inDortmund where she was coached by the MEC team of "Air Rifle shooting" and "The Ways of the Rifle" fame, and particularly by Maik Eckhardt, and I had coaching on coaching.
The first issue is one of discipline and concentration, you should never take a moving shot, if you ask her on her less than good shots I'm sure she will admit to more than her parr level of movement, so discipline, don't take the shot reject it.
As to when, get on the Scatt, it will show the most steady time is early in the hold so again be disciplined.
How to get more stable, I learnt at MEC how much ephasis on stability comes from the left elbow placement and how very tiny adjustments which are almost impercievable when watching but can be felt by the shooter, and they make a lot of difference, most movement comes from that placement, experiment in training. The variation of a mm either way or up or down will make differences in the zero position and then the stability, i.e. the sway.
Get her to check her zero position on every shot on her approach, if its not perfect reject and reform, discipline again. The tempation is to muscle from a 9+ zero but it will inevitably produce tension and tension produces sway. We have experimented with the Scatt and found that a non perfect zero on elevation (a mm or 40 thou on the elbow) produces the most sway.
I use the scatt and after a string of shots on an aiming mark I switch to a black card so the shooter has no refference other than inner and outer position so can't muscle into the middle, its often a very interesting exercise.
I also coach teenagers and it is most rewarding and heartening to see the progress and the fun they get from shooting to a good standard, our best wishes to your daughter.
Good Shooting
Robin
I September we went to MEC inDortmund where she was coached by the MEC team of "Air Rifle shooting" and "The Ways of the Rifle" fame, and particularly by Maik Eckhardt, and I had coaching on coaching.
The first issue is one of discipline and concentration, you should never take a moving shot, if you ask her on her less than good shots I'm sure she will admit to more than her parr level of movement, so discipline, don't take the shot reject it.
As to when, get on the Scatt, it will show the most steady time is early in the hold so again be disciplined.
How to get more stable, I learnt at MEC how much ephasis on stability comes from the left elbow placement and how very tiny adjustments which are almost impercievable when watching but can be felt by the shooter, and they make a lot of difference, most movement comes from that placement, experiment in training. The variation of a mm either way or up or down will make differences in the zero position and then the stability, i.e. the sway.
Get her to check her zero position on every shot on her approach, if its not perfect reject and reform, discipline again. The tempation is to muscle from a 9+ zero but it will inevitably produce tension and tension produces sway. We have experimented with the Scatt and found that a non perfect zero on elevation (a mm or 40 thou on the elbow) produces the most sway.
I use the scatt and after a string of shots on an aiming mark I switch to a black card so the shooter has no refference other than inner and outer position so can't muscle into the middle, its often a very interesting exercise.
I also coach teenagers and it is most rewarding and heartening to see the progress and the fun they get from shooting to a good standard, our best wishes to your daughter.
Good Shooting
Robin
is she tilting her head?
The reason i ask is that if she is it tells her balancing mechanism that she is off kilter and the brain will try to auto correct. the sway starts when her eye tries to counter the auto correct.
Off center sight blocks or canting the rifle can cure this. I have the same problem, i bought off centre sight blocks and it helped a little. Not a full cure but it did help.
Andy
The reason i ask is that if she is it tells her balancing mechanism that she is off kilter and the brain will try to auto correct. the sway starts when her eye tries to counter the auto correct.
Off center sight blocks or canting the rifle can cure this. I have the same problem, i bought off centre sight blocks and it helped a little. Not a full cure but it did help.
Andy
Is it possible that the way in which she is lowering her head onto the cheekpiece is causing slight momentum and affecting balance. This might be an area to check. I don't use wobble blocks but instead practice barefooted at home. The insoles in my boots are Dr. Shole's thin pillow soles. I use these because it helps me to almost reproduce the feeling I have when barefoot without too much cushioning. Another area to consider is the distance between feet and the angle of the feet.
For dry firing one exercise that helps me is to follow a vertical line to the center of the paper and take a shot. This has helped me to refine my lowering technique onto the target. While doing this there is no bullseye but I can see by the grouping of the shots that I am in a comfortable position without being distracted by a score. After about 15-20 shots I put a target out. This has helped me in the past and I probably should do this more often. Recently I use this during dry firing but with a dot at the bottom of the line.
For dry firing one exercise that helps me is to follow a vertical line to the center of the paper and take a shot. This has helped me to refine my lowering technique onto the target. While doing this there is no bullseye but I can see by the grouping of the shots that I am in a comfortable position without being distracted by a score. After about 15-20 shots I put a target out. This has helped me in the past and I probably should do this more often. Recently I use this during dry firing but with a dot at the bottom of the line.
sway
Thanks everyone for the suggestions. It is great to have this forum available with a such a group of accomplished shooters / coaches who are willing to lend expertise!
Robin, I have both of the books you mentioned from MEC and have spent many hours with them. It would be really interesting to spend time as your wife did with the MEC staff get and personal instruction from Maik. We are able to work with a former national and world champion air rifle and small bore competitor on a fairly regular basis. The only problem is he is about an 8 hour drive away, so we only see him for a couple of days every 3 months or so. In between that, dad (me) is in charge of the daily training. Troy has her position very solid, although she is 14 and growing, so he always tweaks things every time we get together, but overall I think her position is good and quite mature for a young shooter who has only been at this about 6 months. We have a SCATT and I will try your suggestion to work on small variations on the placement of the left elbow. We really put a lot of emphasis on zero point, I think it is really hard to overstate it's importance. She has progressed well in the discipline of backing out and not taking a shot when it is not right, but as any shooter knows it is hard to overcome that little voice telling you, you can still pull this one out!
Others have mentioned head position. Her ears are not quite level, but are close. Her coach, Troy Bassham, has said this is a trade-off area and we will experiment some as she matures as a shooter. Currently she has quite a bit of cant and he does not want to have more. We have the rifle butt adjusted to bring it over to her as much as possible, any more and she starts getting contact of the grip and jacket. She is using one set of riser blocks on the sights, again a trade-off area. Really high sights cause their own set of problems. She is shooting in her JO qualifier match in about 3 weeks, so I don't think it is a good time to make major changes to her rifle at this point. However, after that match I plan to add some sight risers and get her on the scatt to see what effect that will have.
Vincent, I like your suggestion of the vertical line. We have already put that suggestion to use in her training session this morning. She said it does help give a reference to better see the sway.
Thanks again everyone for all the great input!!
Robin, I have both of the books you mentioned from MEC and have spent many hours with them. It would be really interesting to spend time as your wife did with the MEC staff get and personal instruction from Maik. We are able to work with a former national and world champion air rifle and small bore competitor on a fairly regular basis. The only problem is he is about an 8 hour drive away, so we only see him for a couple of days every 3 months or so. In between that, dad (me) is in charge of the daily training. Troy has her position very solid, although she is 14 and growing, so he always tweaks things every time we get together, but overall I think her position is good and quite mature for a young shooter who has only been at this about 6 months. We have a SCATT and I will try your suggestion to work on small variations on the placement of the left elbow. We really put a lot of emphasis on zero point, I think it is really hard to overstate it's importance. She has progressed well in the discipline of backing out and not taking a shot when it is not right, but as any shooter knows it is hard to overcome that little voice telling you, you can still pull this one out!
Others have mentioned head position. Her ears are not quite level, but are close. Her coach, Troy Bassham, has said this is a trade-off area and we will experiment some as she matures as a shooter. Currently she has quite a bit of cant and he does not want to have more. We have the rifle butt adjusted to bring it over to her as much as possible, any more and she starts getting contact of the grip and jacket. She is using one set of riser blocks on the sights, again a trade-off area. Really high sights cause their own set of problems. She is shooting in her JO qualifier match in about 3 weeks, so I don't think it is a good time to make major changes to her rifle at this point. However, after that match I plan to add some sight risers and get her on the scatt to see what effect that will have.
Vincent, I like your suggestion of the vertical line. We have already put that suggestion to use in her training session this morning. She said it does help give a reference to better see the sway.
Thanks again everyone for all the great input!!
She is shooting in her JO qualifier match in about 3 weeks, so I don't think it is a good time to make major changes to her rifle at this point.
BRAVO! This is no time to make changes.
What Robin said about discipline in rejecting or taking a shot is probably the most useful idea in this whole thread.
Good luck at JO.
Lowering the head into the rifle's line shouldnt be a problem.
Tilting against the rifles line can give balance shift as you shift approx 10kg to 1 side!
Besides that, take a look a her balance point!! Ofcourse with empty, unloaded, rifle. Most swayers stand on their toes too much. Center of balance should be in midst foot. Ifyou stand in front of her and lóók you can also follow the line of balance, from the gun>arm>hip/chest>legs>feet.
Balance boards can help improve balance as well.
Tilting against the rifles line can give balance shift as you shift approx 10kg to 1 side!
Besides that, take a look a her balance point!! Ofcourse with empty, unloaded, rifle. Most swayers stand on their toes too much. Center of balance should be in midst foot. Ifyou stand in front of her and lóók you can also follow the line of balance, from the gun>arm>hip/chest>legs>feet.
Balance boards can help improve balance as well.
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ShootingSight
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Without knowing exactly what causes your daughter's sway, making sure her center of gravity is centered over her feet will minimize what her muscles need to do to preserve balance.
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The usual pelvis forward, and slightly arched back are good, and also an effort to keep your head erect, bringing the rifle up to the head, rather than tipping the head towards the rifle, will help keep your center of gravity positioned such that you are most stable.
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The usual pelvis forward, and slightly arched back are good, and also an effort to keep your head erect, bringing the rifle up to the head, rather than tipping the head towards the rifle, will help keep your center of gravity positioned such that you are most stable.
Body sway in standing...... solutions?
Great suggestions everyone. I have lots to think about from all the input. I tried to post a picture, (you would think a (retired) electronic engineer could figure it out) but have not been able to get it to upload. Thanks again, more comments / suggestions are welcome!!
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SailAwayAK
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Re: Body sway in standing...... solutions?
Try posting an image to Photobucket or some other source then posting a link to imbed the image here. It would be quite helpful if the photo was of her not in her pants and jacket, rather, just in her warm-up's and sweater and such.rmarsh wrote:Great suggestions everyone. I have lots to think about from all the input. I tried to post a picture, (you would think a (retired) electronic engineer could figure it out) but have not been able to get it to upload. Thanks again, more comments / suggestions are welcome!!
Your daughter is shooting excellent scores for a 14 year old. I would be very cautious in pushing her. Once she has the basic position and an opportunity to practice regularly her nervous system will continue to refine her balance and reduce the sway that you mention or she will get better and better at accomodating to it.
If you are looking for a college scholarship for her, I would suggest introducing her to smallbore. You probably know that it's more difficult to develop excellent smallbore shooters and college coaches look for good smallbore shooters first. Mike Barron
If you are looking for a college scholarship for her, I would suggest introducing her to smallbore. You probably know that it's more difficult to develop excellent smallbore shooters and college coaches look for good smallbore shooters first. Mike Barron
Mike, thanks for the compliment on my daughters shooting. She has only been shooting precision since last August. Her progress has surprised both me and her coach. We had planned for this to simply be a "learning" year. She has instead won or placed high in several competitions with older and much more experienced shooters. Yes, I am trying to temper my enthusiasm and not push her too hard.
She is already shooting smallbore. She shot a JORQ match at TCU last weekend, shooting a 564 which is about 10 points below her average training score. (she let match nerves get to her) Her score was 1 point below an automatic qualifier for JOs, so she should be a sure thing for a first round invite.
Even though she shot a bit below her average it was good enough to attract the notice of Karen Monez, the TCU coach. If she sticks with it for 4 more years, a college scholarship should be within her grasp.
She is already shooting smallbore. She shot a JORQ match at TCU last weekend, shooting a 564 which is about 10 points below her average training score. (she let match nerves get to her) Her score was 1 point below an automatic qualifier for JOs, so she should be a sure thing for a first round invite.
Even though she shot a bit below her average it was good enough to attract the notice of Karen Monez, the TCU coach. If she sticks with it for 4 more years, a college scholarship should be within her grasp.