Hello;
My two sons have appropriated the pair of Unique DES 69 (main gun & backup gun) that I have been shooting for 25 years, so I bought myself a pair of Walther GSP. Ended up taking one in .22 and one in .32 to have maximum versatility. Great guns, and it is great shooting “seriously” with my sons!
But... At the indoor 50 ft range, I cannot adjust the GSP .22 to shoot 10’s with a 6 o’clock hold. I end up grouping at the 12 o’clock edge of the black despite having the rear sight at the lowest possible setting. With the .32 I am lucky, the lowest rear sight setting gets me just in the 10. I already have the spec. 9.6 mm high front sight (the tallest Walther makes) that apparently comes standard on the guns shipped to the US, and I talked to Earl at http://www.carlwalther.com/gsp.htm about a front sight shim. Walther discontinued them!
For context, this is not a novice shooter aiming issue. I have been shooting ISSF and NRA for over 25 years and I typically shoot 95+ in .22 slow fire. I never had any problem shooting the DES 69 at 50 ft using a 6 o’clock hold, the rear sight has a wide enough adjustment range.
I know that the GSP is designed to shoot at 25 m, and I know that at 50 ft the .22 bullet is still rising, but I cannot be the only guy shooting 50 ft with a GSP and a 6 o’clock hold, hence this is probably a common issue (?).
Do you guys have this problem? What solution have you found?
Walther GSP .22 shooting high at 50 ft
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Bill Treanor
- Posts: 113
- Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:35 pm
- Location: Nashville, TN
I think the easiest solution would be to make your own shim for the front sight. All you need to do is to trace the outline of the front sight on a piece of aluminum can, cut it slightly smaller than the outline (so it won't stick out), and then drill a small hole for the screw.
You could make several of them before heading to the range just in case one didn't provide enough elevation change.
You could make several of them before heading to the range just in case one didn't provide enough elevation change.
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Trooperjake
- Posts: 794
- Joined: Sat Dec 18, 2010 9:22 pm
- Location: Cookeville, TN
Check with Earls, see if he has sights in different heights. http://www.carlwalther.com/
Several years ago, I had the same issue with a GSP Expert which was solved by a shim under the front sight - I believe it was obtained from Earl's. It would be easy to take some shim stock and fashion it for placement under the front sight.
Last edited by TonyT on Thu Oct 18, 2012 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks guys.
Yep, the shim under the front sight is the obvious answer. The one Walther used to make (part # 2227274) was 0.5 mm thick. I guess that there probably was a good reason why they selected that thickness, so that would be the first try. Earl is out of stock and “has been begging for years the factory to make more”, but Germany refuses, citing the lack of volume orders.
However, I am concerned that the groove in which the front sight is located is so shallow that having a shim will prevent the front sight itself from being lined up (and locked in correct place) by the groove. Any feedback on that TonyT? Also, do you remember what the 0.5 mm shim’s effect was on the point of impact at 50 ft?
Another trick perhaps is that the blade clipped on the rear sight is 0.3 mm taller than the rear sight itself, so I will probably start by sanding off these 0.3 mm and see what it translates into at 50 ft. A replacement blade is only $10 so it is an inexpensive test. I understand that some guys have dealt with the same issue by simply taking the blade off, i.e. lowering the rear sight by 0.3 mm. That would certainly work too, but is 0.3 mm enough? Also removing the blade makes the rear sight becomes considerably narrower. Not great.
All of these solutions are not very “German.” One would think that Walther would simply have a taller front sight, or - even simpler - would manufacture the rear sight with a bigger adjustment range. The ironic part of course is that you can depress manually the spring loaded rear sight way deeper than the adjustment screw goes. All it would take is a 0.5 mm taller fold in the leaf spring under the click screw...
I was hoping that someone somewhere would machine taller GSP front sights. I would imagine that virtually all GSPs .22 shot at 50 ft with the 6 o’clock hold would have the same issue. Not to mention trying to get a GSP to shoot at point of aim at 50 ft! I know that the real stuff is shot at 25 meter, and I do, but winter in the mountains makes it challenging to shoot ISSF outdoors in 3 feet of snow and at 25 F...
Yep, the shim under the front sight is the obvious answer. The one Walther used to make (part # 2227274) was 0.5 mm thick. I guess that there probably was a good reason why they selected that thickness, so that would be the first try. Earl is out of stock and “has been begging for years the factory to make more”, but Germany refuses, citing the lack of volume orders.
However, I am concerned that the groove in which the front sight is located is so shallow that having a shim will prevent the front sight itself from being lined up (and locked in correct place) by the groove. Any feedback on that TonyT? Also, do you remember what the 0.5 mm shim’s effect was on the point of impact at 50 ft?
Another trick perhaps is that the blade clipped on the rear sight is 0.3 mm taller than the rear sight itself, so I will probably start by sanding off these 0.3 mm and see what it translates into at 50 ft. A replacement blade is only $10 so it is an inexpensive test. I understand that some guys have dealt with the same issue by simply taking the blade off, i.e. lowering the rear sight by 0.3 mm. That would certainly work too, but is 0.3 mm enough? Also removing the blade makes the rear sight becomes considerably narrower. Not great.
All of these solutions are not very “German.” One would think that Walther would simply have a taller front sight, or - even simpler - would manufacture the rear sight with a bigger adjustment range. The ironic part of course is that you can depress manually the spring loaded rear sight way deeper than the adjustment screw goes. All it would take is a 0.5 mm taller fold in the leaf spring under the click screw...
I was hoping that someone somewhere would machine taller GSP front sights. I would imagine that virtually all GSPs .22 shot at 50 ft with the 6 o’clock hold would have the same issue. Not to mention trying to get a GSP to shoot at point of aim at 50 ft! I know that the real stuff is shot at 25 meter, and I do, but winter in the mountains makes it challenging to shoot ISSF outdoors in 3 feet of snow and at 25 F...
rethink
AFAIK GSPs are designed to be able to shoot at any range with a six or sub-six hold. If you can push the rear sight down further after bottoming out the elevation screw, there's something wrong with your rear sight. However adding a shim under the front sight is so easy and inexpensive to do, I don't know why you haven't just done that already. Or why you would consider modifying your rear sight instead. The .5mm Walther shim does not raise the bottom of the front sight above the groove, so alignment is not an issue. Just make a shim of about the same thickness out of any material that's within reach. Just do it and stop over-thinking it.DESman wrote: I would imagine that virtually all GSPs .22 shot at 50 ft with the 6 o’clock hold would have the same issue. Not to mention trying to get a GSP to shoot at point of aim at 50 ft!
FredB
Relax guys, no need to put each other under pressure here...
To answer FredB’s point: “The .5mm Walther shim does not raise the bottom of the front sight above the groove, so alignment is not an issue”. The front sight grooves on my two GSPs are both 0.3 mm, so the 0.5 mm shim DOES raise the front sigh above the groove and prevent it from being locked in alignment. Not necessary a big deal, but still a fact.
Also “If you can push the rear sight down further after bottoming out the elevation screw, there's something wrong with your rear sight”. I do not know I you own a GSP FredB, but if you do, check it for yourself. I bet that yours does the same thing...
To answer Rover’s point: “Gee! Do you think my earlier post just might have some relevance here?” No contest, we all agree.
But I think TonyT gets the last word here: “less than what I would have expected from a German manufacturer.” Amen! Dare I add: less than I would have expected from a $2,000 gun...
Anyway, thank you all for the responses. Once again, let the customer sort himslef the manufacturer's screw ups. Oh well...
To answer FredB’s point: “The .5mm Walther shim does not raise the bottom of the front sight above the groove, so alignment is not an issue”. The front sight grooves on my two GSPs are both 0.3 mm, so the 0.5 mm shim DOES raise the front sigh above the groove and prevent it from being locked in alignment. Not necessary a big deal, but still a fact.
Also “If you can push the rear sight down further after bottoming out the elevation screw, there's something wrong with your rear sight”. I do not know I you own a GSP FredB, but if you do, check it for yourself. I bet that yours does the same thing...
To answer Rover’s point: “Gee! Do you think my earlier post just might have some relevance here?” No contest, we all agree.
But I think TonyT gets the last word here: “less than what I would have expected from a German manufacturer.” Amen! Dare I add: less than I would have expected from a $2,000 gun...
Anyway, thank you all for the responses. Once again, let the customer sort himslef the manufacturer's screw ups. Oh well...
no pressure - just common sense
I have owned 5 GSP or OSP top ends, with complete sight sets. All 5 behave exactly as I described. Because I shoot center hold, I am very familiar with shimming the front sights of GSPs/OSPs, and I know that none of my 5 top ends would have required shimming if I had wanted to shoot six or sub-six holds.DESman wrote:Relax guys, no need to put each other under pressure here...
To answer FredB’s point: “The .5mm Walther shim does not raise the bottom of the front sight above the groove, so alignment is not an issue”. The front sight grooves on my two GSPs are both 0.3 mm, so the 0.5 mm shim DOES raise the front sigh above the groove and prevent it from being locked in alignment. Not necessary a big deal, but still a fact.
Also “If you can push the rear sight down further after bottoming out the elevation screw, there's something wrong with your rear sight”. I do not know I you own a GSP FredB, but if you do, check it for yourself. I bet that yours does the same thing...
None of the rear sights on mine can be pushed down after the elevation screw is bottomed out. If yours is different, you might be able to remedy it by using a washer in between the elevation screw head and the top of the rear sight. My .5mm Walther shim does not raise the front sight base above the groove. If you believe .5 mm is too thick for your gun, you can make a thinner shim.
I'm sorry if your gun (or guns) is different, but you cannot extrapolate about all GSPs or Walther's policies from a single (or two?) sample. If you bought your guns new, have you contacted the seller with your concerns? If you get no satisfaction from the seller, the simple and cheap remedy is still in your hands.
FredB
Thanks FredB, your knowledge is much appreciated.
To try to bring closure on this issue, it seems that you too had to “fix” your GSPs / OSP. It is very clear from your post that you had to shim your front sights. Assumedly, you would not have done it if you had been able to adjust your rear sights low enough.
My post was not so much meant to ask “how do you fix it?” (I have already fixed it) as it was meant to inquire “is this a common problem ?”
It seems that this question has been answered: clearly my guns/tops are not out of the ordinary, you apparently have/had five GSP/OSP guns/tops that have/had the same issue, so did TonyT, and apparently so did many other shooters on other blogs. And ultimately, and this is probably the most telling fact, Walther would not have manufactured a shim if it is was not needed. Case closed
Shimming the front sight, adding a washer under the rear sight adjustment screw, removing the clip-on blade on the rear sight, or simply accepting the situation and changing (consciously or not) the aiming method are all cures to address the problems and are all compromises that generally have downsides: adding a washer under the rear adjustment screw prevents the clicks from working, removing the clip-on blade narrows the rear sight, and - on my two guns at least - adding a shim prevents the front sight to seat in its groove. I was trying to avoid the compromise...
By the way I am not surprised that some front sight grooves may be deeper in the barrel. Apparently manufacturing tolerances are not all that close. I saw that when I measured (digital caliper) the front sights on my two guns. The factory says that they are 4.2 mm wide x 9.6 mm high. Mine are 3.86 x 9.36 and 4.0 x 9.28. Just that: missing 0.3 mm to 0.4 mm in height on the front sight is enough to explain the aiming problem at 50 ft. I asked Earl at the Walther repair center to measure the replacement front sights that he has, and low and behold, not one of them is on spec: all of them being shorter by 0.2 to 0.3 mm... So it may very well be that the grooves for the front sights on your guns/tops are deeper than the one on my guns and accept the shim while still allowing the front sight to be nested in it. Mine do not...
In the end, it seems that guns/tops that cumulate unfavorable variances in tolerance on front and rear sights have the problem, and that guns/tops on spec or with favorable variances in tolerance do not have the problem.
I need to shoot today or tomorrow to verify one thing, and I think that I will be able to tell you how Walther quietly addressed what was apparently a very common problem...
To try to bring closure on this issue, it seems that you too had to “fix” your GSPs / OSP. It is very clear from your post that you had to shim your front sights. Assumedly, you would not have done it if you had been able to adjust your rear sights low enough.
My post was not so much meant to ask “how do you fix it?” (I have already fixed it) as it was meant to inquire “is this a common problem ?”
It seems that this question has been answered: clearly my guns/tops are not out of the ordinary, you apparently have/had five GSP/OSP guns/tops that have/had the same issue, so did TonyT, and apparently so did many other shooters on other blogs. And ultimately, and this is probably the most telling fact, Walther would not have manufactured a shim if it is was not needed. Case closed
Shimming the front sight, adding a washer under the rear sight adjustment screw, removing the clip-on blade on the rear sight, or simply accepting the situation and changing (consciously or not) the aiming method are all cures to address the problems and are all compromises that generally have downsides: adding a washer under the rear adjustment screw prevents the clicks from working, removing the clip-on blade narrows the rear sight, and - on my two guns at least - adding a shim prevents the front sight to seat in its groove. I was trying to avoid the compromise...
By the way I am not surprised that some front sight grooves may be deeper in the barrel. Apparently manufacturing tolerances are not all that close. I saw that when I measured (digital caliper) the front sights on my two guns. The factory says that they are 4.2 mm wide x 9.6 mm high. Mine are 3.86 x 9.36 and 4.0 x 9.28. Just that: missing 0.3 mm to 0.4 mm in height on the front sight is enough to explain the aiming problem at 50 ft. I asked Earl at the Walther repair center to measure the replacement front sights that he has, and low and behold, not one of them is on spec: all of them being shorter by 0.2 to 0.3 mm... So it may very well be that the grooves for the front sights on your guns/tops are deeper than the one on my guns and accept the shim while still allowing the front sight to be nested in it. Mine do not...
In the end, it seems that guns/tops that cumulate unfavorable variances in tolerance on front and rear sights have the problem, and that guns/tops on spec or with favorable variances in tolerance do not have the problem.
I need to shoot today or tomorrow to verify one thing, and I think that I will be able to tell you how Walther quietly addressed what was apparently a very common problem...
misunderstanding
DESman, there is a misunderstanding here. You say you are a long-time shooter and that you use a six o'clock hold. I don't know what guns you have used, but it is the rare gun indeed, including Walther GSPs/OSPs, that cannot shoot into the X ring with a simple rear sight adjustment if the shooter is using a six or sub-six hold. As I said, all 5 of my GSP/OSP top ends would shoot into the X ring without any front sight shimming required, if I used a six o'clock hold.
However I use a center hold. I have found that more than half the guns I have owned require front sight shimming for me when I use a center hold. Apparently, most European target shooters do not use a center hold, overwhelmingly preferring a sub-six hold. So I've had to do this simple adaptation to many of my Euro guns. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GUNS. It's NOT a problem. My guns do NOT have the same issue that you say yours does.
FredB
However I use a center hold. I have found that more than half the guns I have owned require front sight shimming for me when I use a center hold. Apparently, most European target shooters do not use a center hold, overwhelmingly preferring a sub-six hold. So I've had to do this simple adaptation to many of my Euro guns. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THE GUNS. It's NOT a problem. My guns do NOT have the same issue that you say yours does.
FredB
I see...
In answer to your question, I have been shooting a pair of Unique DES 69 for 25 years and never had any issue. My two boys now shoot them.
By the way, this is NOT a Walther bashing session. I love the GSP and I am just back from the range, testing various ammo for the .22 top. So far, mine likes Aguila Match Pistol, Eley Club and Lapua Pistol King best, followed by CCI Green Tag. I still need to test RWS, SK Pistol Match Special and Wolf Match Extra. Some good scores, typically in the mid 90’s for 2 strings of 5 shots each, including a perfect string (50) with Aguila Match Pistol. Let it be clear, I am a GSP fan...
Maybe I was unlucky and my two GSPs (.32 and .22) both have cumulative unfavorable variances in the sight manufacturing tolerances, or maybe 1994 was not the best year for GSP sights manufacturing (although in “as new” condition both my guns - bought used - have production year stamps KE, i.e. 1994). But anyway, I had the opportunity to put my hands on a newer production rear sight, and I put the digital caliper to it... Lo and behold, the “plunger” in the rear sight that is located under the adjustment screw is almost 1 mm longer!!! i.e. when the adjustment screw is bottomed out, the rear sight is set almost 1 mm lower. That translates into almost a 3” difference in point of impact at 50 ft!!! And would you believe it, with this sight mounted on my .22 top, I shoot Xs with the 6 o’clock hold and without needing a shim under the front sight...
Looks like Walther either replaced worn-out tooling for the manufacturing of rear sights, or quietly modified the rear sight blueprints on the GSP to give it a wider adjustment range sometimes in the late 1990’s, or possibly when they introduced the Expert (?). This would also explain why they stopped manufacturing the front sight shim...
Anyway, too bad we live so far apart, it would have been great to look at your guns and mine side by side, micrometer in hand, and chew the fat endlessly about sights sizes, tolerances, manufacturing changes over the life of the gun, etc.
Enjoy shooting your GSPs, I enjoy mine, and for those out there coming into a GSP and finding it impossible to adjust the sights at 50 ft: you are not alone. Google it, you will find many entries in many blogs about it... Get a front sight shim if you want to play with that, or get an Expert generation rear sight.
Nice chatting with you all. Thank you. Signing off this thread...
In answer to your question, I have been shooting a pair of Unique DES 69 for 25 years and never had any issue. My two boys now shoot them.
By the way, this is NOT a Walther bashing session. I love the GSP and I am just back from the range, testing various ammo for the .22 top. So far, mine likes Aguila Match Pistol, Eley Club and Lapua Pistol King best, followed by CCI Green Tag. I still need to test RWS, SK Pistol Match Special and Wolf Match Extra. Some good scores, typically in the mid 90’s for 2 strings of 5 shots each, including a perfect string (50) with Aguila Match Pistol. Let it be clear, I am a GSP fan...
Maybe I was unlucky and my two GSPs (.32 and .22) both have cumulative unfavorable variances in the sight manufacturing tolerances, or maybe 1994 was not the best year for GSP sights manufacturing (although in “as new” condition both my guns - bought used - have production year stamps KE, i.e. 1994). But anyway, I had the opportunity to put my hands on a newer production rear sight, and I put the digital caliper to it... Lo and behold, the “plunger” in the rear sight that is located under the adjustment screw is almost 1 mm longer!!! i.e. when the adjustment screw is bottomed out, the rear sight is set almost 1 mm lower. That translates into almost a 3” difference in point of impact at 50 ft!!! And would you believe it, with this sight mounted on my .22 top, I shoot Xs with the 6 o’clock hold and without needing a shim under the front sight...
Looks like Walther either replaced worn-out tooling for the manufacturing of rear sights, or quietly modified the rear sight blueprints on the GSP to give it a wider adjustment range sometimes in the late 1990’s, or possibly when they introduced the Expert (?). This would also explain why they stopped manufacturing the front sight shim...
Anyway, too bad we live so far apart, it would have been great to look at your guns and mine side by side, micrometer in hand, and chew the fat endlessly about sights sizes, tolerances, manufacturing changes over the life of the gun, etc.
Enjoy shooting your GSPs, I enjoy mine, and for those out there coming into a GSP and finding it impossible to adjust the sights at 50 ft: you are not alone. Google it, you will find many entries in many blogs about it... Get a front sight shim if you want to play with that, or get an Expert generation rear sight.
Nice chatting with you all. Thank you. Signing off this thread...
Re: Walther GSP .22 shooting high at 50 ft
Had same problem at 20 yard targets. Rear sight bottomed out , using sub six hold and shots where still over two inches high. with S&B 90gr ammo.
Decided to make shims. According to the math, I needed a minimum of .035" higher front sight if impact was 3 inches too high.
Used .020" thick strips available from Hobby stores and made two shim to fit under the front sight, which is the tallest available.
It's a 1976 GSP. Actually has "76" instead of the two letter year code.
Decided to make shims. According to the math, I needed a minimum of .035" higher front sight if impact was 3 inches too high.
Used .020" thick strips available from Hobby stores and made two shim to fit under the front sight, which is the tallest available.
It's a 1976 GSP. Actually has "76" instead of the two letter year code.