Where does your sling go in prone and kneeling, above or below the prominent bone on the wrist(Ulna). Why do you choose that position?
I have my sling below in both position but I'm having a little discomfort and swelling when I train sling positions long and often. Is this normal or should you be able to shoot 100 shots prone 2-3 times a week without any discomfort the day after?
Sling high or low on the wrist
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I don't think I have the sling so tight. If I loosen the sling the whole position feels loose.
How do I know if my sling is too tight/loose?
I wonder if my slender build could be a contributing factor. With that I mean that the sling goes against bone and not muscle as it would if my build where "heavier".
How do I know if my sling is too tight/loose?
I wonder if my slender build could be a contributing factor. With that I mean that the sling goes against bone and not muscle as it would if my build where "heavier".
I don't really understand what you mean with moving tha sling restraint further away and having the handstop in between. Could you explain that?RobStubbs wrote:You can investigate moving the sling restraint further away from you and have the handstop in between. I just have my sling where it is and whilst my hand goes slightly numb I get no pain. If you can talk to a coach they should be able to help you better investigate options.
Rob.
No coach available here unfortunately.
Rob means that you could try moving the point that the sling attaches to the rifle further away from you and lengthening the sling while keeping the handstop in the same place. You would need to obtain another attachment point but the sling might sit more comfortably under the wrist.
FWIW, I have my sling below the wrist because I find that if it's higher (across the back of the hand and across the bony bit of the wrist) then the weight of the rifle is on the hand between the thumb and index finger where the tissue is soft and pain comes quite quickly.
The lower sling allows the hand to rotate a bit more and the weight of the rifle ends up on the back of the hand where there are bones to support it.
The right handstop also helps.
I recently shot a 60 shot match - taking over 70 minutes - with only brief periods with the rifle out of the shoulder. No pain, minimal numbness.
Regards,
Ken.
FWIW, I have my sling below the wrist because I find that if it's higher (across the back of the hand and across the bony bit of the wrist) then the weight of the rifle is on the hand between the thumb and index finger where the tissue is soft and pain comes quite quickly.
The lower sling allows the hand to rotate a bit more and the weight of the rifle ends up on the back of the hand where there are bones to support it.
The right handstop also helps.
I recently shot a 60 shot match - taking over 70 minutes - with only brief periods with the rifle out of the shoulder. No pain, minimal numbness.
Regards,
Ken.
Okay, now I understand. I have a mec handstop and it's possible to attach the sling in two different places. One close to the hand and one 3-4cm in front of the hand. Maybe I should try and attach the sling in the front attachment and getting it forward from the hand.
I have little problem when I shoot at my competition rate of fire. I shoot a 60 shot prone in about 50-60 minutes and I between 2-4 times for about 1 minute each.
When I train I often shoot slower because I'm trying to solve problems and therefore being in position longer, that's when I get problems with swelling and discomfort for a couple of days.
I have little problem when I shoot at my competition rate of fire. I shoot a 60 shot prone in about 50-60 minutes and I between 2-4 times for about 1 minute each.
When I train I often shoot slower because I'm trying to solve problems and therefore being in position longer, that's when I get problems with swelling and discomfort for a couple of days.
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Dean Peterson
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:18 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
Hand stop
The rifle should rest over the fleshy part of the palm below the thumb. The sling should lay FLAT accross the back of the hand - you need to put a twist in the sling in order to have the sling lay flat. A RH shooter should twist the sling - at the connection point swivel - 1/2 turn CCW (this is very dependent upon your point of view..... This is akward to describe - but the resulting twist should allow the sling to lay flat against the back of the hand.
I'm guessing you should already know about this twist - but if you have no coach this may be something that's over looked.
Another, similar problem, is where the adjustment buckle sits - if that buckle is under your hand - it can be very painful. Some slings will permit adjustments so that this buckle can be moved farther back towards the point where the sling attaches to the (upper) arm.
Re: above or below the wrist bone - I admit I have trouble visualizing this position. As the sling wraps around the back of the hand - it emerges at the point where the wrist bends - approximately.
A good glove, and coat, should provide enough protection to avoid too much sling discomfort. However, the hem of the coat sleve MAY ride under the sling at exactly this point on the wrist - you may need to make some adjustments to the coat to avoid the added bulk of the sleve hem.
A very good coach once suggested to me that I should tighten the sling until it was nearly too painful to bear - then back it off a notch (or two) for comfort. I would humbly add that after a few sessions of shooting prone - at length - your tolerance for sling pain will improve - and you may be able to tighten the sling a bit in order to improve stability.
Successful prone is partly a matter of how well you can tolerate the discomfort of a tight position - and you build endurance by shooting the position as often as possible - and for as long as necessary to accomplish the course of fire you are attempting.
Very few prone shooters remain in position for the full time alloted - most finish reasonably quickly. You should have a plan to cope with situations where you have to stay in position longer than expected (usually due to wind changes or range problems) but otherwise adopt a tight position and shoot very efficiently. By efficient I mean a minimum of movement to load, unload, view results in the scope or on the monitor. It can also be very helpful to have a "resting" position that allows you to take pressure off your hand - but you have to be able to recover from that resting position and still shoot 10's. Incorporate the resting position in your training - so you will know what to expect when you try to recover from your rest....in some cases you don't get to shoot more sighters, so you have to be confident of your position and your ability to shoot in the center after your rest.
Dean
I'm guessing you should already know about this twist - but if you have no coach this may be something that's over looked.
Another, similar problem, is where the adjustment buckle sits - if that buckle is under your hand - it can be very painful. Some slings will permit adjustments so that this buckle can be moved farther back towards the point where the sling attaches to the (upper) arm.
Re: above or below the wrist bone - I admit I have trouble visualizing this position. As the sling wraps around the back of the hand - it emerges at the point where the wrist bends - approximately.
A good glove, and coat, should provide enough protection to avoid too much sling discomfort. However, the hem of the coat sleve MAY ride under the sling at exactly this point on the wrist - you may need to make some adjustments to the coat to avoid the added bulk of the sleve hem.
A very good coach once suggested to me that I should tighten the sling until it was nearly too painful to bear - then back it off a notch (or two) for comfort. I would humbly add that after a few sessions of shooting prone - at length - your tolerance for sling pain will improve - and you may be able to tighten the sling a bit in order to improve stability.
Successful prone is partly a matter of how well you can tolerate the discomfort of a tight position - and you build endurance by shooting the position as often as possible - and for as long as necessary to accomplish the course of fire you are attempting.
Very few prone shooters remain in position for the full time alloted - most finish reasonably quickly. You should have a plan to cope with situations where you have to stay in position longer than expected (usually due to wind changes or range problems) but otherwise adopt a tight position and shoot very efficiently. By efficient I mean a minimum of movement to load, unload, view results in the scope or on the monitor. It can also be very helpful to have a "resting" position that allows you to take pressure off your hand - but you have to be able to recover from that resting position and still shoot 10's. Incorporate the resting position in your training - so you will know what to expect when you try to recover from your rest....in some cases you don't get to shoot more sighters, so you have to be confident of your position and your ability to shoot in the center after your rest.
Dean
Re: Hand stop
I do know about that. I have a sling with micro adjustment so it swivels after the upper arm loop so just to give less twisting torque in the front strap that goes to the rifle.Dean Peterson wrote:The rifle should rest over the fleshy part of the palm below the thumb. The sling should lay FLAT accross the back of the hand - you need to put a twist in the sling in order to have the sling lay flat. A RH shooter should twist the sling - at the connection point swivel - 1/2 turn CCW (this is very dependent upon your point of view..... This is akward to describe - but the resulting twist should allow the sling to lay flat against the back of the hand.
I'm guessing you should already know about this twist - but if you have no coach this may be something that's over looked.
Yes I've adjusted the sling just to get the buckle away from my wrist.Dean Peterson wrote:Another, similar problem, is where the adjustment buckle sits - if that buckle is under your hand - it can be very painful. Some slings will permit adjustments so that this buckle can be moved farther back towards the point where the sling attaches to the (upper) arm.
Here the sling is like the way I have it.Dean Peterson wrote:Re: above or below the wrist bone - I admit I have trouble visualizing this position. As the sling wraps around the back of the hand - it emerges at the point where the wrist bends - approximately.
I have no problem with the pain when I shoot, when it starts to hurt so it affects my concentration I just rest for approximately one minute. I do incorporate this in my training, especially when I'm my competition training phase. My goal is to be able to shoot a 60 shoot match rather quick but that does require a solid position that I don't need to adjust so often to have my npa right etc.Dean Peterson wrote:A good glove, and coat, should provide enough protection to avoid too much sling discomfort. However, the hem of the coat sleve MAY ride under the sling at exactly this point on the wrist - you may need to make some adjustments to the coat to avoid the added bulk of the sleve hem.
A very good coach once suggested to me that I should tighten the sling until it was nearly too painful to bear - then back it off a notch (or two) for comfort. I would humbly add that after a few sessions of shooting prone - at length - your tolerance for sling pain will improve - and you may be able to tighten the sling a bit in order to improve stability.
Successful prone is partly a matter of how well you can tolerate the discomfort of a tight position - and you build endurance by shooting the position as often as possible - and for as long as necessary to accomplish the course of fire you are attempting.
Very few prone shooters remain in position for the full time alloted - most finish reasonably quickly. You should have a plan to cope with situations where you have to stay in position longer than expected (usually due to wind changes or range problems) but otherwise adopt a tight position and shoot very efficiently. By efficient I mean a minimum of movement to load, unload, view results in the scope or on the monitor. It can also be very helpful to have a "resting" position that allows you to take pressure off your hand - but you have to be able to recover from that resting position and still shoot 10's. Incorporate the resting position in your training - so you will know what to expect when you try to recover from your rest....in some cases you don't get to shoot more sighters, so you have to be confident of your position and your ability to shoot in the center after your rest.
Dean
The problem is that my wrist get sore and swollen the days after training sessions.
I will experiment with attaching my sling in the attachment point forward of my hand. I tested it quick yesterday and the hand seems to be in a more comfortable position because it doesn't get clamped in the same way between the sling and rifle. Not sure how this affects my wrist but it feels like it could be a positive change.
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Dean Peterson
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2004 1:18 pm
- Location: San Jose, CA
Sling
Is this a picture of YOU?
From my view - this sling position appears too low - below the wrist - and I would expect it to be somewhat painful.
Somehow - I'm guessing that someone will point out that this picture is of some highly regarded prone shooter (somewhere) and this will serve to prove the point of the utility of this sling position....so will add the following caveat.
We strive to start new shooters with simple and clear fundamental directions that we are confident of. There are ALWAYS exceptions to these directions.
My glove has a very clear pattern of wear directly over the back of my hand, most of the prone shooters I know of have a similar pattern on their glove, the picture you offer shows the sling well down (even past) the wrist. No contact with the back of the glove - which is actually designed to have sling contact in that specific area...... Your hand (assuming this is YOU) must be rolled under the stock towards the RH side - I don't think I could assume this position w/o some pain.
BTW - the swelling you mention is NOT normal. After a full day of prone shooting I will have "sleep" marks on my hand from the compression - but this passes quickly, leaving no swelling.
I want to add that the Mec handstop - like some others - is what I will call TALL - meaning the connection point is well away from the stock. This distance makes for a more comfortable hand placement. If the sling connection point were immediately flush with the stock the gap between the hand stop and the stock would be very small - and hand pain would result from the "pinching" between sling and stock.
So, I'm guessing, from your descriptions, that the pain is NOT the result of the type of hand stop.
The diameter of the hand stop is another consideration - some like a small diameter - others larger - something you have to play with to experience for yourself. In general, I like the wider handstop - but this has never been a matter of pain, more a matter of preference. Smaller hands may be more comforable with smaller hand stops etc.
The MEC design (again like some other models) can be off set laterally - this too is a matter of personal preference.
Many fantastic prone scores were produced (still being produced) with NONE of the advantages offered from todays stocks and hand stops - so it's hard to know how much these things contribute to higher scores.
Certainly, at the highest levels, even very small things will make a difference.
Some of the stuff we end up working with ends up being a lot like fishing lures - hard to know if it's meant to attract fish - or fishermen :-)
I love gadgets in the first place - so shooting is right up my ally in terms of gadgets - but I try to avoid thinking that any of these things is a magic bullet for sudden improvements - it takes genuine hard work to make real improvement.
Take carefull notes of your settings - make some adjustments - keep what you like - or go back to your original notes and begin again. You will find the solution eventually.
All the best!
From my view - this sling position appears too low - below the wrist - and I would expect it to be somewhat painful.
Somehow - I'm guessing that someone will point out that this picture is of some highly regarded prone shooter (somewhere) and this will serve to prove the point of the utility of this sling position....so will add the following caveat.
We strive to start new shooters with simple and clear fundamental directions that we are confident of. There are ALWAYS exceptions to these directions.
My glove has a very clear pattern of wear directly over the back of my hand, most of the prone shooters I know of have a similar pattern on their glove, the picture you offer shows the sling well down (even past) the wrist. No contact with the back of the glove - which is actually designed to have sling contact in that specific area...... Your hand (assuming this is YOU) must be rolled under the stock towards the RH side - I don't think I could assume this position w/o some pain.
BTW - the swelling you mention is NOT normal. After a full day of prone shooting I will have "sleep" marks on my hand from the compression - but this passes quickly, leaving no swelling.
I want to add that the Mec handstop - like some others - is what I will call TALL - meaning the connection point is well away from the stock. This distance makes for a more comfortable hand placement. If the sling connection point were immediately flush with the stock the gap between the hand stop and the stock would be very small - and hand pain would result from the "pinching" between sling and stock.
So, I'm guessing, from your descriptions, that the pain is NOT the result of the type of hand stop.
The diameter of the hand stop is another consideration - some like a small diameter - others larger - something you have to play with to experience for yourself. In general, I like the wider handstop - but this has never been a matter of pain, more a matter of preference. Smaller hands may be more comforable with smaller hand stops etc.
The MEC design (again like some other models) can be off set laterally - this too is a matter of personal preference.
Many fantastic prone scores were produced (still being produced) with NONE of the advantages offered from todays stocks and hand stops - so it's hard to know how much these things contribute to higher scores.
Certainly, at the highest levels, even very small things will make a difference.
Some of the stuff we end up working with ends up being a lot like fishing lures - hard to know if it's meant to attract fish - or fishermen :-)
I love gadgets in the first place - so shooting is right up my ally in terms of gadgets - but I try to avoid thinking that any of these things is a magic bullet for sudden improvements - it takes genuine hard work to make real improvement.
Take carefull notes of your settings - make some adjustments - keep what you like - or go back to your original notes and begin again. You will find the solution eventually.
All the best!
There is a widely held misconception that shooting prone is about putting up with pain. It shouldn't be and getting the position right will help reduce it. You will never eliminate it but it should be bearable and not distracting. I'm a novice rifle coach but one of the guys I work with is very good. He can make those fine adjustments that make a fair difference and tweak positions to get them much less uncomfortable.
Rob.
Rob.
I think what Dean is saying is that the hand should be underneath the stock much more and hence the sling then runs across the back of the hand. It looks like Marco is carrying the gun on his thumb, whereas it should be more in the palm of the hand. The position clearly works for him, but its not a position I'd recommend.
Rob.
Rob.
ITS PERSONAL PREFERENCE! Everyone is different. One thing may work for a guy over there but not for you and vice versa. You need to experiment yourself. The sling shouldn't hurt your wrist. Also, as you experiment, give the rifle a little wiggle. If it moves a lot with little force, theres a problem. And problems need to fixed right then and there not next week after a competition.
Ahaaa!
Johan - Looking at the second picture that you posted, it shows the loop of your sling very close to your elbow. If you position your sling below the bicep, you will have to run the sling below your wrist. If you sling up above the bicep, it will be easier to get that clamping action across the back of your hand.
Sorry, yet another variable...
Sorry, yet another variable...