"Dry fire"

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 6:36 am

I read somewhere that one should do 100 dry fires to 1 on the range. It may be going a bit too far but I do agree with the idea to some extent.
Does shooting with an air gun be considered as "dry fire"? There is no recoil involved! And using a SCATT, will it not be the same as dry fire?

Or, do you only count dry firing at a white wall as real dry firing?

RandomShotz · Post by **RandomShotz** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 8:32 am

There is a discussion of dry fire and a link to a video of SFC Sanderson that addresses this here:

/viewtopic.php?t=33845&highlight=sanderson

100 to 1 dry/live fire is a lot, but it works for him.

Roger

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:19 pm

I have seen that part. The question is; can I count air pistol training and SCATT training as a sort of dry fire? I use a sub 6 hold, a sort of aiming at a white area that can be like a white wall if I relax a lot :-)
I hope that it is about HOW I shoot and not if small pellet leaves the gun as long as the pistol does not move when the shot goes off.
If I were to shoot 9mm with a SCATT is this not the same as dry fire?
Does the possibility to read the result disturb my dry fire training?

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:45 pm

RandomShotz wrote:There is a discussion of dry fire and a link to a video of SFC Sanderson that addresses this here:

/viewtopic.php?t=33845&highlight=sanderson

100 to 1 dry/live fire is a lot, but it works for him.

Roger

Nope. It will work for anyone with the set of knowledge such as “Perfect Single Shot Development”, which was introduced about in 2005 with my first appearance at TT and a following live performance at the Canadian Air gun Grand Prix in 2007 :
http://www.midwestshootingacademy.com/events.shtml
and the
2007 USAS National.
http://midwestacademyconsulting.wordpress.com/video/
Everyone who took the class understands the difference of the process behind the term "dry fire”. If someone just follows the ratio 100/1, at this point he must conclude that nothing happened since he started to follow this sequence. The problem is located at a deeper level of understanding of what you know about this process and more importantly, is what you do not know. To help you understand what you are doing in an incorrect order, you have to consult with professionals who can assess your current performance and can help you bring your knowledge level to the status of your goal performance. Do you have a goal in your development or are you just making holes in a paper? ;)

“Perfect Single Shot Development”
http://midwestacademyconsulting.wordpre ... class-101/

Isabel1130 · Post by **Isabel1130** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:52 pm

I think a SCATT or a Noptel actually enhances dry firing, by giving you confidence in your hold, however, if you are focusing on the result, (shooting tens) you may forget about why you are dry firing, which should be to focus on your shot process. I might be a big believer in the 100 to one ratio of dry fire to live fire (if I had to go to the range for every live fire) Since I have an AP range in my living room, I dry fire my big guns, 45, 9mm, and rimfire, and my air pistol, then I take an occasional live fire shot with the AP to confirm my shot process. Other times, I will warm up with dry fire, and then shoot ten or more shots live fire with the air pistol.

Brian G · Post by **Brian G** » Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:57 pm

RandomShotz wrote:There is a discussion of dry fire and a link to a video of SFC Sanderson that addresses this here:

/viewtopic.php?t=33845&highlight=sanderson

100 to 1 dry/live fire is a lot, but it works for him.

Roger

Not always, he has had a pistol malfunction in competition that he would have had in training had he not dry fired so much ;-) OK I know it can happen to anyone at anytime.

tedbell · Post by **tedbell** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:33 pm

You know Russ, I hope you pay Scott every time you post one of your "look at me! Please pay attention to me!!! I teach a course that if you pay me lots of money I will make promises that you will become a gold medal Olympic star!" blathering interruptions. You're nothing but a cheap prostitute taking advantage of the generosity of others, and add nothing to the discussions you interrupt.

Rant off.

Thanks,
Ted

Volker · Post by **Volker** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:04 pm

:popcorn:

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:20 pm

Dear tedbell (I'm sorry I do not know your human name),

Thank you for your input for the “Dry fire” topic.
Can you be more specific with "your generous help " and contribute more with purpose to help.
I have some marketing problems that everyone knows about it. So, there is no point to beat a dead horse.
Let me explain something to you.
"Lots of money" - What do you know about the value of my class? Do you know that the class by itself has only a 30% value because the other 70% only comes with my prolonged support, from three months to over one year of my assistance until the time when real closure takes place with an elevation of score performance? You can take different classes every day and you will have similar "NO results" in most cases.
I do care about each student and their performance.
No one is offering what I do. No one can make it happen in three months, sometimes even less. There is no point to compare my service by price.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:45 pm

To the OP;

My dry fire practice consists of getting to know your trigger intimately.
I shoot multiple guns, maybe a bad thing cause I have to learn multiple triggers.

I choose one of my guns on a given night and dry fire at a black dot on the wall 15ft away.

What I am trying to do is fire as I would in competition with that gun.
The final outcome is what I see when the trigger breaks and the hammer falls.
I want to see NO MOVEMENT.
If I see that, then my shot process is good, if not I refine it until there is no movement.

Even an air pistol has recoil, not much, but it is there.

Make sure there is no movement after the hammer falls(follow through).

This is just my take on dry firing from a not that great of a shooter, but trying hard.

I really want to focus on Free and Air, but I am also involved in BE 2700

It is tough to master 7 different triggers, just need to write down each guns shot process.It will take some time, but It can happen, and it will.

Free= Hammerli FP60
Air= Steyr LP1
EIC= Beretta 92FS
DR= S&W M19-5
BE.22= SA with Marvel
BE CF= S&W M52
BE.45= SA .45

For what its worth,
Clarence

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:56 pm

You know guys, I spent 15-20 minutes trying to answer the OP's question and I hit send and see more crap written above my post that does not help with the OP's question at hand.

Honestly, I may be wrong in my answer to the OP, but it is what I know and do whether it be right or wrong to some.
It has helped me become a better shooter in a lot of different disciplines over the years.

So, therefore, could we keep all threads on topic with good, solid honest and informative answers ?

Just saying...
Clarence

tedbell · Post by **tedbell** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:52 pm

Reinhamre;

In my opinion, shooting an air gun is not the same as dry firing, and doesn't net the same benefits of dry firing. One of the points of dry firing is to not worry or think about score or where the bullet goes, but instead to focus on the fundamentals- hold, sight alignment, trigger. Which is why doing it on a blank background has some additional benefits- you're removing even the distraction of the target, and just concentrating on improving your hold, etc. if you shoot an air gun, you are still subconsciously thinking about score, bullet hit point, etc.

Thanks,
Ted

Russ · Post by **Russ** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:03 pm

"to not worry or think about score or where the bullet goes, but instead to focus on the fundamentals"

Dear Ted,

Should we carve your teachings in stone? I found some flaws in your teachings. First of all, no one can implement your suggestion of do "not worry or think about score" because all suggestions should be expressed in the way of what to do. A simple example, my English is my second language. I have problems with grammar because I did not go through regular school as you did. If you will advise me to not make mistakes in grammar, I will probably learn nothing from you. Our mind can implement only positive suggestions, any suggestions such as "do not worry" should be taught in a different environment with long applications and the only way to not worry is to switch your attention to a different subject. About fundamentals, it takes me two days to teach about this subject. You were capable to teach this subject in half a sentence. Congratulations. You did an amazing job and I am happy of your wonderful capabilities. My best wishes.

C. Perkins · Post by **C. Perkins** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:30 pm

Volker;

I like a lot of butter on my popcorn.

I guess we will dispense this thread to Russ and sit back and enjoy our popcorn.

To Russ;
To be totally honest.
I think you should have a sticky to your web site, period.
What you bring to TT is creating pissing contests.

Russ, I think you are most likely a hell of a coach and understand and able to influence/ teach others of shooting free and air pistol disciplines.
(and more, when it comes to disciplines).

I feel that you are a more one on one type person and have a passion to give.

But the internet will get in your way with the responces you give.

I have never once said anything bad about or toward you, cause I understand your points.
I just cannot stand your responces to questions with no real world answers.

I can understand some of your answers but the general public cannot.

Sorry to the OP for being off topic.

PS:
Russ;
If you can speak and comprehend a conversation in english, I would like to talk to you personaly.

PM me with your phone number.
This is not a bait to punish or put you down, I just would like to talk to you.

Regards

Clarence

shaky hands · Post by **shaky hands** » Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:09 pm

Reinhamre wrote:I read somewhere that one should do 100 dry fires to 1 on the range.

RandomShotz wrote:There is a discussion of dry fire and a link to a video of SFC Sanderson that addresses this here:
/viewtopic.php?t=33845&highlight=sanderson

I call BS on this "100:1" advice. Let's be serious about numbers. Consider a VERY dedicated shooter (with either no real life job or no family or both) who spends 4 hours each day training, say, 6 days a week for 24 hours/week. After 4+ weeks of diligent dry fire practice that shooter "earns" one hour on the range. Really??? I do not believe for one second that this is how Keith Sanderson trains. Now take a slacker who "only" spends 2 hours training each day. That shooter should not bother coming to the live practice more often than once every 2 months.
C'mon, Mr. Sanderson is surely a great shooter of a national caliber, but his math is not.

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 10:46 am

OP is here...
Thank you all for responding. I spent some time to ponder on the subject :-)
To "Russ"
I do not think that it is a question of spending money on a magic course.
I already shoot 560+. You do not need to be a dazzling pedagogue to make anyone go from 500 to 540. There are a lot of good advices here on TT it is just a question of understanding how to benefit from them.

To "Isabel1130"
I am glad that you agree with me that SCATT can work for dry fire IF one takes care and rely do dry fire and not try to shoot. Maybe a reversed target will prevent any misbehaving?

To "C.Perkins"
There should be no trouble with different triggers, I have tried 1000 gram on my air pistol and it goes great. One soon learns how the trigger works though and is back on square one in no time. Yes, you are right, there IS recoil even in a LP10 and it may disturb.

"tedbell" and "shaky hands"
Yes I listen, it is not all about shooting 100 to 1, and he clearly talks about spending time first to try just to hold the gun hard and just point at a blank wall. THEN to do dry fire. It goes faster to do dry fire (no reloading) so one can do a lot in an hour.

In summary:
Start from the beginning and do not take any short cut.
Try to understand what the purpose with each drill is.

shaky hands · Post by **shaky hands** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 11:27 am

Reinhamre, I do not agree that dry firing takes less time than the life fire. If it is, one is not doing it right. It is supposed to be done exactly as one does actual firing minus the shot. When one dryfires a free/air pistol the actual insertion of the round/pellet takes only a few seconds at most and is negligible on the scale of time it takes to set the trigger, visualize the shot, raise the arm, settle and fire (often with the need to abort and start all over again). Besides, doesn't one need some rest period between shots anyway? So, in my opinion, reloading time is a non-issue. If it were, dryfiring a standard pistol would actually take longer as one had to rack the slide manually after every shot.

Reinhamre · Post by **Reinhamre** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 1:27 pm

And time to travel to the range? Put up targets? Patching targets? Talk to mates? Going home again?
I think dry fire is very useful and will do a lot more than before. Now when winter starts it is easy to make it 100 to 1. :-)

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Tue Sep 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Dry firing is really a tool. It's what you do or rather what elements you train, that are important. It's easier to do anyplace, anytime, including in your home. You can shoot scatt whilst dry firing but it's a different technique than what most people mean by dry firing. Scatt is best done with a target (IMHO), dry firing works best against a clean white background.

Rob.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » Wed Sep 26, 2012 8:28 pm

I truly believe in the 100:1. I spent one season training FP and shot ~60 rounds as I prepared for a big match the rest of the time was very focused 20 mins sessions dry firing working a specific goals each time mostly around the basics. End result was a personal record of 547 and second place in the NRA sectional behind Zurek.

I think a more experienced person can keep their performance capabilities flat with minimal live fire.

I will have to say for me dry firing only seems to really help my FP and AP and not so much my 45 scores.

TargetTalk

"Dry fire"

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