Hello folks,
I ran a brief test at 50 yards today with my two Clark Hardball guns, one old Colt by Sr. that now has a david Santurri-installed KART barrel & bushing, one new Caspian by Jr.
One load was 200gr Oregon Trail LSWC over 4gr V-V N310, the other Nosler 185 JHP over 4.8gr V-V N310, both taper crimped. The Nosler load cut my group size by 50% or more in both pistols using a sandbag rest at 50 yards. Basically, the Noslers stayed in the center of the black on a standard B6-T. The LSWC had a hard time getting into the black, with a few making it and most outliers touching the black. I haven't tested 230gr FMJ yet.
Is this considered a normal occurrence, or a problem with my load? At 25 yards, the LSWC load does well. At 50 yards, it falls apart.
Thanks for your assistance!
Amanda
200gr LSWC VS. NOSLER 185gr JHP @ 50 YARDS-WHAT WINS?
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Amanda4461
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Isabel1130
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Chances are good, since these are hardball guns, that neither will shoot lead bullets (wadcutters) well. That can make the difference right there. If the guns had Kart barrels, the wadcutter should have probably worked better but you still have to adjust up and down to find the sweet spot load for a particular gun. Also watch your OAL. I am at a loss as to why someone would choose a Kart Barrel for a service pistol.
The true test will be with the 230g FMJ's since you can't shoot either the 185's or the 200g wadcutters legally in a hardball match, so how they perform is kind of immaterial.
Most guns will shoot well at 25 yards, but that accuracy does not extend out to 50 yards in some linear formula. The rounds can become unstable at some point between 30 to 40 yards. This can be caused by many things including barrel twist rate.
If you use 230g ammo and the gun still wont hold the ten ring, you will need to look at possibly a poor barrel, improper lockup, or the gun is not tight enough in the right places. Also a sandbag will work to give you a general idea of what the gun is doing, but it is still possible to get triggering errors that will pull shots. Before I gave up, I would get a master or high master shooter to shoot the gun offhand with 230g match legal ammo. If he/she cant call the shots (i.e. if they do not print on the target where he called them) you know you have an issue.
The true test will be with the 230g FMJ's since you can't shoot either the 185's or the 200g wadcutters legally in a hardball match, so how they perform is kind of immaterial.
Most guns will shoot well at 25 yards, but that accuracy does not extend out to 50 yards in some linear formula. The rounds can become unstable at some point between 30 to 40 yards. This can be caused by many things including barrel twist rate.
If you use 230g ammo and the gun still wont hold the ten ring, you will need to look at possibly a poor barrel, improper lockup, or the gun is not tight enough in the right places. Also a sandbag will work to give you a general idea of what the gun is doing, but it is still possible to get triggering errors that will pull shots. Before I gave up, I would get a master or high master shooter to shoot the gun offhand with 230g match legal ammo. If he/she cant call the shots (i.e. if they do not print on the target where he called them) you know you have an issue.
Ok a few myths here. Kart barrels test just as good as Barsto or KKM barrels for FMJ or lead. a good smith will pre test a barrel before fitting, and all makers will have less than optimum barrels once in a while.
If Karts were jacketed unfriendly they would not be the barrel of choice for 50 yard shooting with the Zero or Nosler 185's.
Testing should be scientific , a Ransom rest and a chronograph should be used if you are serious about getting accurate results.
Most lead cast bullets are not inspected individually for weight variations or molding defects, they do get a visual check but not a detailed QC inspection.
Jacketed bullets get both a visual and a weight inspection during production.
Hardball rounds typically do not get a tight QC inspection since they are not considered "match" bullets. You will have some better quality going with a smaller manufacture like Zero which tends to run slower,shorter runs than lets say a large manufacturer. If you really want accuracy you will need to weigh your bullets individually. I know that sounds like a lot but rifle shooters do it al the time.
For serious results you must expend a serious effort.
If Karts were jacketed unfriendly they would not be the barrel of choice for 50 yard shooting with the Zero or Nosler 185's.
Testing should be scientific , a Ransom rest and a chronograph should be used if you are serious about getting accurate results.
Most lead cast bullets are not inspected individually for weight variations or molding defects, they do get a visual check but not a detailed QC inspection.
Jacketed bullets get both a visual and a weight inspection during production.
Hardball rounds typically do not get a tight QC inspection since they are not considered "match" bullets. You will have some better quality going with a smaller manufacture like Zero which tends to run slower,shorter runs than lets say a large manufacturer. If you really want accuracy you will need to weigh your bullets individually. I know that sounds like a lot but rifle shooters do it al the time.
For serious results you must expend a serious effort.
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Isabel1130
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Greg, I don't think we have any basic disagreement here. I don't think'is is a myth that Kart barrels generally shoot lead bullets very well, and if you tell a gunsmith that you want a wad gun to shoot lead, he will generally suggest a Kart barrel. If I asked David Sams for a dedicated hardball 45, he would NOT suggest a Kart barrel, although it should be quite adequate for just about any hardball gun, if the barrel, and the gun and the ammo are otherwise good.
Everything else we seem to be in agreement with. Barrels need to be tested, and while a Ransom rest with an experienced operator will tell you a lot, it will not tell you everything. (The big trick is finding someone who knows both how to tune and operate a ransom rest)
If I were to shoot a dedicated 45 hardball gun, I would probably shoot AA&A ammo at the long line, and what ever was legal and functioned in the gun at the short line. Match bullets are a waste at the 25 yard line. One of my friends has done very well in the Presidents match the last couple of years with a 45. He is using Winchester White Box.....for the entire match. :-)
Everything else we seem to be in agreement with. Barrels need to be tested, and while a Ransom rest with an experienced operator will tell you a lot, it will not tell you everything. (The big trick is finding someone who knows both how to tune and operate a ransom rest)
If I were to shoot a dedicated 45 hardball gun, I would probably shoot AA&A ammo at the long line, and what ever was legal and functioned in the gun at the short line. Match bullets are a waste at the 25 yard line. One of my friends has done very well in the Presidents match the last couple of years with a 45. He is using Winchester White Box.....for the entire match. :-)
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Amanda4461
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200grR LSWC VS. NOSLER 185gr JHP @ 50 YARDS-WHAT WINS?
Folks,
Thanks for the info. My main concern was to see if most shooters have noticed that LSWC loads fall behind the Noslers at 50 yards, but seem to do OK at 25 yards. The two Hardball guns just happened to be the ones I wanted to use today, and one has a new Kart bbl, while the other is whatever barrel Clark makes or buys for use in their frames. All I know is it has Clark's name on it, and since it will hold inside a 2" square at 50 yards off the Ransom Rest, I consider it as accurate as I need. Knowing that the Nosler groups well, I will be looking to compare the 230gr FMJ to it at 50 yards, same as I did the Oregon Trail bullets. If I am not pushing the LSWC fast enough, or too fast, that might explain the inability of the LSWC to group well. Again, I am just trying to save time by acquiring known "good recipes" with the LSWC. The Nosler was previously known to be a good load in a wad gun or two, and it held up here as well. I have never heard that any manufacturer's barrel was decidedly "better" than another when shooting LSWC, but then I have much more experience in Service Rifle and .22 rimfire than in .45ACP. All of my wad guns are Jim Clark Sr. models from long ago, and they all have stock Colt bbls. They too prefer the Nosler at 50 yards. The Hardball guns will be used to shoot Metallic Silhouette at 50 yards, far more than they will be used to play BE, since this part of Texas is not a BE haven. If I can get them to group well with the 200gr LSWC, it would definitely be easier on the wallet, plus I like the way they cut paper targets when I use them.
Thanks!
Amanda
Thanks for the info. My main concern was to see if most shooters have noticed that LSWC loads fall behind the Noslers at 50 yards, but seem to do OK at 25 yards. The two Hardball guns just happened to be the ones I wanted to use today, and one has a new Kart bbl, while the other is whatever barrel Clark makes or buys for use in their frames. All I know is it has Clark's name on it, and since it will hold inside a 2" square at 50 yards off the Ransom Rest, I consider it as accurate as I need. Knowing that the Nosler groups well, I will be looking to compare the 230gr FMJ to it at 50 yards, same as I did the Oregon Trail bullets. If I am not pushing the LSWC fast enough, or too fast, that might explain the inability of the LSWC to group well. Again, I am just trying to save time by acquiring known "good recipes" with the LSWC. The Nosler was previously known to be a good load in a wad gun or two, and it held up here as well. I have never heard that any manufacturer's barrel was decidedly "better" than another when shooting LSWC, but then I have much more experience in Service Rifle and .22 rimfire than in .45ACP. All of my wad guns are Jim Clark Sr. models from long ago, and they all have stock Colt bbls. They too prefer the Nosler at 50 yards. The Hardball guns will be used to shoot Metallic Silhouette at 50 yards, far more than they will be used to play BE, since this part of Texas is not a BE haven. If I can get them to group well with the 200gr LSWC, it would definitely be easier on the wallet, plus I like the way they cut paper targets when I use them.
Thanks!
Amanda
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NDbullseye
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I haven't tried any jacketed bullets out of my wad guns. I use 200gr SWC with 3.7gr Clays. They shoot 1.5" group at 50yds. I will not be switching to jacketed bullets due to the fact cheap lead bullets perform flawlessly. 200gr SWC can be picky on powder choice and charge weight. Also try a different primer. I have found that accuracy will deviate with moving from winchester to federal.
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Isabel1130
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Amanda, Noslers are very good bullets but they are pricy. Most unsupported shooters that I know, save them for the long line. The Army and Marines use them through the entire match. If you can afford it, they are definitely the way to go. However, I dont believe they will tell you anything about how the 230 FMJ will perform in your gun. The Army uses Atlanta Arms and Ammo ammunition in their hardball guns. At over 50 cents a round, most of us would be willing to use it at the long line but again it is probably unnecessary, as good triggering and a stiff wrist will do you more good than the most expensive ammo in the world. Just what I have been told by a lot of master and high master class shooters.
David Sams believes that running jacketed bullets through a gun AFTER running lead will damage and wear the barrel. He says the copper drives the lead into the sides of the barrel and it is very tough to remove. This is why I dont use Noslers at the long line. They may be "better" but since my shots are on call with the 185lhp's that I use at the long line, I am a happy camper. I don't have to worry what was the last kind of bullet I fired or clean the gun inbetween the Center fire and the 45 match, because nothing but lead goes through it. Nothing but jacketed ammo goes through my ball gun.
At Camp Perry this year, I fired an 89 on the 45 team match slow fire target. My individual shots were X,X,X,X,10,9,9,9,6,6. None of those shots were flyers. The 6's were purely the result of triggering errors.
David Sams believes that running jacketed bullets through a gun AFTER running lead will damage and wear the barrel. He says the copper drives the lead into the sides of the barrel and it is very tough to remove. This is why I dont use Noslers at the long line. They may be "better" but since my shots are on call with the 185lhp's that I use at the long line, I am a happy camper. I don't have to worry what was the last kind of bullet I fired or clean the gun inbetween the Center fire and the 45 match, because nothing but lead goes through it. Nothing but jacketed ammo goes through my ball gun.
At Camp Perry this year, I fired an 89 on the 45 team match slow fire target. My individual shots were X,X,X,X,10,9,9,9,6,6. None of those shots were flyers. The 6's were purely the result of triggering errors.
Last edited by Isabel1130 on Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Isabel1130
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Well I don't think you'll be able to duplicate JHP performance with a cast bullet . You may come close if you inspect every base & weigh each before sizing / lubing . What a PITA ! Instead I'd suggest a good swaged bullet like the Zero 200 SWC . All 3 of my wadguns with Kart barrels love this bullet . Try with 3.8 Bullseye or 3.6 VVN310 . WLP primer , OAL to fit your barrel / chamber & .469 crimp . BTW the Zero 185 JHP shoots as good as the Nosler & is cheaper . YMMV .
Andy
Andy
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Levergun59
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The problem with lead bullets commercially produced with a magmacaster is the venturi effect of the needle valve and the creation of air pockets. All pot production using a needle is the same. Weight variation for this style production is usually double or more versus commercially jacketed bullets. It goes by reason that these air pockets are not evenly balanced in the bullet in every bullet leading to dispersion.
Swaged bullets have no air pockets and will match up by weight with commercially jacketed bullets. The problem I have had with these bullets is a buildup of lead in the chamber just ahead of the case mouth. This ridge builds up through a match because of the soft lead used in the swaging process. This has deterious effect on accuracy. Shoot swaged 38 special bullets in a revolver and then try to chamber a 357 round. Just won't happen.
Ladle poured hardcast bullets have no air pockets and will also match up with commercial jacketed bullets by weight. By ladle, I mean Rowell ladle which pours from the bottom of the 2# ladle through a cast "straw" so no dross is incorporated in the bullet. Slow to cast, yes. Accurate at 50 yards, yes.
If I get a howl of protests, I'll post about nose poured Hoch bullets with the best cast bullet bases in the business. Hope this helps.
Chris
Swaged bullets have no air pockets and will match up by weight with commercially jacketed bullets. The problem I have had with these bullets is a buildup of lead in the chamber just ahead of the case mouth. This ridge builds up through a match because of the soft lead used in the swaging process. This has deterious effect on accuracy. Shoot swaged 38 special bullets in a revolver and then try to chamber a 357 round. Just won't happen.
Ladle poured hardcast bullets have no air pockets and will also match up with commercial jacketed bullets by weight. By ladle, I mean Rowell ladle which pours from the bottom of the 2# ladle through a cast "straw" so no dross is incorporated in the bullet. Slow to cast, yes. Accurate at 50 yards, yes.
If I get a howl of protests, I'll post about nose poured Hoch bullets with the best cast bullet bases in the business. Hope this helps.
Chris
With all due respect, I have 200 gr LSWC (Oregon Trail) load that will shoot just as well as the Nosler load. Well, actually slightly better in one of my guns. So I will disagree with a blanket statement that lead or jacketed is always better than the other. Test your guns, create the most consistent loads you can and then shoot whatever works. Some barrels are better with one or the other, some don't seem to care.
My 200 grain lead load is Oregon Trail 200 gr LSWC, 3.85 gr VV310, 1.239 nominal length (I use shoulder seating stem so some will be slightly longer or shorter), 0.469 taper crimp, Winchester Large Pistol primer, federal brass.
My 650 is set up with two seating dies, normal cone type seating stem to start the bullet and a second seating die with a shoulder seating stem for the final depth, o-rings under the seating and crimp dies, the powder measure was is cleaned up, etc.
For the short line, just substitute the 180 gr Oregon Trail LSWC, with no other changes in the loading.
Cecil
My 200 grain lead load is Oregon Trail 200 gr LSWC, 3.85 gr VV310, 1.239 nominal length (I use shoulder seating stem so some will be slightly longer or shorter), 0.469 taper crimp, Winchester Large Pistol primer, federal brass.
My 650 is set up with two seating dies, normal cone type seating stem to start the bullet and a second seating die with a shoulder seating stem for the final depth, o-rings under the seating and crimp dies, the powder measure was is cleaned up, etc.
For the short line, just substitute the 180 gr Oregon Trail LSWC, with no other changes in the loading.
Cecil
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Levergun59
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I use a Star and push them nose first into the die. The bullet base edges should be sharp. Anything sort of rounded gets put back in the pot. I like the speed of the Star and use a mechanics trouble light to keep the lube soft. When it gets to weepy, I just shut off the light. The Star will align the bullets better as it goes through the die.
Any kind of damage done to the nose of the bullet either through sizing or bullet seating will not make a lot of difference to bullet accuracy. Bullet bases are critical
I won't disagree with your Oregon Trail comments. Certain bullets and barrels just love each other at certain speeds with the right alloy of lead. You have obviously done your homework, and it works. I'll bet if I had the same mold and and bullet lead they use, mine would shoot even better in your gun.
Chris
Any kind of damage done to the nose of the bullet either through sizing or bullet seating will not make a lot of difference to bullet accuracy. Bullet bases are critical
I won't disagree with your Oregon Trail comments. Certain bullets and barrels just love each other at certain speeds with the right alloy of lead. You have obviously done your homework, and it works. I'll bet if I had the same mold and and bullet lead they use, mine would shoot even better in your gun.
Chris
My $.02: Due to casting imperfections, the odds are that you won't be able to consistently get the same 50 yard accuracy with cast bullets as Noslers, but I've proven on the Ransom rest several times with many different guns, that I can do better than my best Nosler load with the right load behind a Star or Zero swaged bullet. I only shoot swaged bullets at 50 yards, the cast bullet will stay in the X ring at 25 yards. And the lead bullets don't wear a barrel anywhere near as much (actually, hardly at all) as jacketed bullets do. I have one Rock River with a Kart barrel that has well over 85,000 rounds through it, and it still shoots sub 1.5" at 50 yards - I've heard the accurate life expectancy of a barrel with jacketed bullets is in the range of 8,000 to 15,000 rounds, but I also know of top competitors that have rebarreled after as few as 5,000 rounds.
Walt
Walt
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Amanda4461
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- Location: Beaumont, Texas 77707
Cast Bullets
Walt,
Sounds like it is time for me to try the swaged LSWC. Where might I find a decent buy on the Star or Zero?
Thanks!
Amanda
Sounds like it is time for me to try the swaged LSWC. Where might I find a decent buy on the Star or Zero?
Thanks!
Amanda
The Star have unfortunately been out of business for a few years now, but Zero makes a 185 grain LSHCHP that is almost as good. I've had even better results with the Zero 200 grain lead SWC. Over 4.2 Bullseye, they often go into one big hole at 50 yards, where I almost always got some amount of vertical stringing with the Noslers regardless of the powder charge.
Zero sells wholesale to dealers - in fact I see their banner at the top of this page. Or can buy them direct retail through Roze distribution. http://www.rozedist.com/
Walt
Zero sells wholesale to dealers - in fact I see their banner at the top of this page. Or can buy them direct retail through Roze distribution. http://www.rozedist.com/
Walt
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Isabel1130
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Most swaged bullets of a given weight will shoot about the same. However, be careful that they have the same base. A flat based bullet will have a different poi than a bevel based bullet, and one or the other may work way better in a particular gun.davekp wrote:Magnus 200gr swaged SWC are about the same as the Zero's. Shoot the same in my gun.
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Levergun59
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Flat based bullets are the way to go for any short range targets. Best way to explain this is that any misalignment of the bullet in the barrel is thrown more out of whack when the base extension exits the crown and the propellent gases hit it in the rear causing more oscillation. Classic example is a long range VDL rifle bullet will shoot terrible 100yd groups and shoot much better at 300yds. The bullet takes a certain amount of time to go to sleep { stop oscillating }. My explanation may just be mumbo-jumbo to some, but it is a fact born out of 150 years or more of bullet experimentation.
Chris
Chris