ISSF rule change from 1st January 2013

conradin · Post by **conradin** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:22 am

I wonder if those guys in ISSF ever competed on a high level, or just a bunch of bureaucrats.

Martin H · Post by **Martin H** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:40 am

I dont see how that changes between electronic and paper. we have done finalls on paper for 50m pistol where you simply shoot a shot, then your pistol is cleared, people walk out onto the range and measure the shots, call them out and then leave the range.[/quote]

And then mark each shot to the nearest decimal before deciding who is eliminated while everyone waits in position (rifle)? By the 18th shot it will like watching paint dry, not exactly entertaining viewing. Certainly not what is envisaged for ISSF finals :-)
Martin H

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:59 am

Martin H wrote:I dont see how that changes between electronic and paper. we have done finalls on paper for 50m pistol where you simply shoot a shot, then your pistol is cleared, people walk out onto the range and measure the shots, call them out and then leave the range.

And then mark each shot to the nearest decimal before deciding who is eliminated while everyone waits in position (rifle)? By the 18th shot it will like watching paint dry, not exactly entertaining viewing. Certainly not what is envisaged for ISSF finals :-)
Martin H[/quote]
The format is designed for tv and if it is a big enough event to be on tv then it will be on electric targets. Shooting on paper will be at lower level where you won't be attracting a crowd so who cares if it's like watching paint dry.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:16 am

If you organize your local competitions you can set any qualification, final rules as you wish. Paper targets could be even brought to the firing line by eight finalists of your local "Miss of the State" (that would surely rise the impact in media!) :-)

You know, referees of soccer have special audio systems to communicate, for next years FIFA decides to use balls with chips, etc. However, when any match of 6th local ligue is run, referees have a whistle and a stick with a rag attached with tacks. ;-)

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 6:54 am

Martin H wrote:I have been advised that this doc has not yet been released by the ISSF so someone has jumped the gun and posted on it here.
...
Cheers
Martin H

This document has been already received by our national federation officially, so... it is open for discussion, I suppose :-)

EJ · Post by EJ » Wed Sep 12, 2012 9:57 am

Grzegorz wrote:This document has been already received by our national federation officially, so... it is open for discussion, I suppose :-)

The National Rifle Association of India has also received it but it would be nice to see it come from ISSF directly too.

Simkovitch · Post by **Simkovitch** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:34 pm

Quoting from a letter attached with this document:

We are sending this summary to all ISSF Member Federations now so that you are able to inform your athletes, coaches and judges about the rule changes and prepare to apply them in next year’s competitions.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:37 pm

Of note ... Finals go to 20 shots.
Air Rifle Finals looks to be skippy:
--All start at zero

1) 15 min Prep & Sighter
2) 5 min Introductions
3) 2 min Final Sighting time
---Series Stages
4) 2-1/2 min First 3 shot Series
5) 2-1/2 min Second 3 shot Series
--- Single Shot Stages
6) 45 sec per shot on shots 8-20
Lowest scorer drops out after every 2 shots which determine places as well
(10, 12, 14, 16, 18)
so that shots 19 & 20 are only between the 1 & 2 scorers.

Tie breaking shots are to be fired for the lowest ranking shooters that are to be dropped, so there are 5 points where ties can be broken in this format.

50m 3-Position event Finals look to include all 3 positions with "fast changes between positions".

Simkovitch · Post by **Simkovitch** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:55 pm

no extra time will be allowed to repair or replace a malfunction or disabled gun.

Great.
Make the match time shorter and no extra time if you have a problem.

I expect long lines to get a gun serviced.
And maybe the manufacturers starting to charge money for a standard checkup at ISSF events.

And why make shooting trousers illegal for 60 prone, but legal for prone in 3X40 ?
Some of these of these changes are just ridiculous...

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 1:58 pm

jhmartin wrote: ...
1) 15 min Prep & Sighter
2) 5 min Introductions
3) 2 min Final Sighting time
---Series Stages
4) 2-1/2 min First 3 shot Series
5) 2-1/2 min Second 3 shot Series
--- Single Shot Stages
6) 45 sec per shot on shots 8-20
(...)
50m 3-Position event Finals look to include all 3 positions with "fast changes between positions".

Are you sure about these details? I mean time and 3P?

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:10 pm

Grzegorz wrote:Are you sure about these details? I mean time and 3P?

Shoot, no one is sure ....
I got this from the same topic in pistol ... go to the top of page 2 and download the gen-Tech link that ruig posted.
viewtopic.php?t=36366&start=20

The Finals formats & timelines for pistol & rifle are down near the bottom of the doc.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:29 pm

Yeah, I missed that the subject is "duplicated", thank you very much. :-)

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:30 pm

Simkovitch wrote:And why make shooting trousers illegal for 60 prone, but legal for prone in 3X40 ?

I presume that's to save the 3P shooter from having to leave the range to go to the changing room.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:53 pm

David Levene wrote:I presume that's to save the 3P shooter from having to leave the range to go to the changing room.

David, you're kidding, right? That's the best time to tune in and up the ratings!

David Levene · Post by **David Levene** » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:03 pm

jhmartin wrote:
David Levene wrote:I presume that's to save the 3P shooter from having to leave the range to go to the changing room.
David, your kidding, right? That's the best time to tune in and up the ratings!

I'm with you, but unfortunately the Dress Code spoiled all the fun "no changing on the firing points or in the ranges".

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:09 am

I guess there's a petition out here in the US, I don't have facebook, but it seems that folks are very up in arms about the start from zero in the finals.

In air rifle & air pistol, basically we have the format for the for the final, and while it starts at zero, it also contains double (now 20) the shots to minimize any "lower than desired" shots. While it's different, I don't think it a disaster.

I don't think folks understand that the 3-position final is indeed 3-positions and triple the shots (30 shots overall) ... at least what I've heard.
It's basically a 3x10 match with funky timelines similar to the standing finals ... BUT all 3 positions are fired. Now to me ... 3-position shooters that are great in prone and kneeling, but maybe struggle a bit more in standing, I think this new final is actually a benefit to them ... instead of only the 10 shots standing they had previously, they also have 10 in prone and 10 in kneeling.

Start from zero (SFZ to keep my typing down) is common in a lot of Olympic events.
There is a SFZ in track events between the quals & Finals.
There is a SFZ in volleyball between games.
There is a SFZ in swimming between prelims & finals
There is a SFZ when you walk out onto a fencing piste for a new opponent
There is a SFZ in basketball, waterpolo, etc as you go into a new match.
OK, it's new for shooting, but not a disaster.

I'm more concerned about the equipment changes.
--Left Side Panel with no seams that will make tons of jackets illegal w/o a better definition of the seam they are concerned about. Check your jacket out, especially KT & Mouche. If there is a "seam" under the support arm ... illegal. Me, I think if they want to go that route, then any seam stitching going all the way thru all layers.
--Boots/Shoes - Don't like having to grind down (and possibly delaminate) boots
--What the heck is a "Vibration Reduction System"?
From a simple physics standpoint ANY mass that you attach to the rifle will reduce vibration. Vibration is motion and to move any mass it takes energy. (Remember F=ma from high school?)
So a jerko jury member could decide that the riser you mounted, the extra weight you add to balance the rifle, the sight extension tube you have on the rifle ... i.e ANYTHING you have added reduces vibration and is banned. What exactly are they trying to ban?

SFZ ... meh ... we'll roll our eyes and get over it .... I'm guessing that (most) 3-position shooters, when they finally see what it is, will like it.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:59 am

jhmartin wrote:...
OK, it's new for shooting, but not a disaster.

...
--What the heck is a "Vibration Reduction System"?
From a simple physics standpoint ANY mass that you attach to the rifle will reduce vibration. ... What exactly are they trying to ban?
...

I agree. I never heard any really logic voice against the "reset to zero". Most of opposite opinions can be summarized: "I do not like it", "why having my +5 points got in the qualifications I lose them?", etc.

At the same time I agree with most of suggestions given by:
http://10point9.ie/2012/09/12/some-sugg ... -the-issf/
The author perfectly shows the way ISSF should follow.

Concerning banning "Vibration Reduction Systems" I find this rule as very harmful for the scientific development in the shooting sport. I understand that ISSF tends to have all shooters like Martinov (shooting 600) but their equipment need not look like his equipment... Moreover, this rule is against shooters that do not have an easy access to the ammunition companies. Up to now, they had at least possibility to tune the vibration frequency of their barrels to fit it with ammunition. Now they do not. I am also astonished by this decision because absorbers have a nice look for TV. So, what is the goal??? This rule should be removed as soon as possible.

ghostrip · Post by **ghostrip** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:10 am

take 100m. yes it is a SFZ every time they start but they do run 100m every time. i would not object to have a final for the top 8 people with 60 shots fired just as they shoot their qualify round. but not a final that does not even resemble the qualify match. as cambriani and debevec point you dont take the 8 top from marathon and make them run 100m to decide the top spot.

Grzegorz · Post by **Grzegorz** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:21 am

ghostrip wrote:...you dont take the 8 top from marathon and make them run 100m to decide the top spot.

Demagogic.
You do not take the 8 top from 60 prone and make them shoot 10 shots in 10 sec to decide the top spot.

Spencer · Post by **Spencer** » Thu Sep 13, 2012 3:37 am

Grzegorz wrote:...Concerning banning "Vibration Reduction Systems" I find this rule as very harmful for the scientific development in the shooting sport. I understand that ISSF tends to have all shooters like Martinov (shooting 600) but their equipment need not look like his equipment... Moreover, this rule is against shooters that do not have an easy access to the ammunition companies. Up to now, they had at least possibility to tune the vibration frequency of their barrels to fit it with ammunition. Now they do not. I am also astonished by this decision because absorbers have a nice look for TV. So, what is the goal??? This rule should be removed as soon as possible.

From you comments, you seem to understand what "Vibration Reduction Systems" means: I do not - and openly admit that I do not.

Please explain what "Vibration Reduction Systems" means.