Proposed New Clothing Regulations

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:33 pm

"Trying the sport" for us entailed a five week class (one night for 2 -2 1/2 hrs per night) with a half course match the following weekend.

Some continued, many did not. Some needed modified positions, or skipping positions, due to pre-existing injuries. (Thinking of the woman with "herrington rods" in her spine, who could not shoot in some positions but went on the compete locally in smallbore silhouette.)

None complained of anything other than the normal aches from stretching unused muscles.

robf · Post by **robf** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:52 pm

Sparks wrote:
Pat McCoy wrote:Many athletes in sports with far more physical demands than ours (rowers, high jumpers, pole vaulters, weight lifter, shot put discus, hammer throwers, etc) spend four or more hours a day training for years on end without serious chronic problems. Perhaps because as athletes they have developed their muscles rather than asked the organizing body to allow them to use artificial support to achieve their goals.
Last time I looked, weightlifters and shotputt and discus throwers all had belts, pole vaulters used large thick mats to land on, and rowers have sliding seats and heel restraints so they don't mangle their backs.

Shooters are supposed to be athletes too. Yes, it takes additional training time to develop the proper muscles, but that is the nature of any sport.
You're missing the point completely.
You think it would bother Matt Emmons if you took away the suits? The man's fulltime job is target shooting, he's already doing the gymwork. It'd just be another fun challange for him.

But for people who aren't doing this fulltime and have to hold down jobs and can't risk long-term expensive chronic injuries; or those who are just starting off and haven't yet learnt enough to not injure themselves without the suits -- for the bottom 99% of the sport in other words -- taking away the suits is a recipe for chronic injuries.

And telling someone that to try our sport - just to try it safely - requires a regular gym programme on pain of permanent back injuries? That's just going to stop new blood coming into the sport, and that's the death knell for it right there.

Hang on. A post ago you were saying it was the intensive 4 hour a day shooters that are in danger. That's only going to be the very top flight of international shooters who likely will be doing very specific and managed training. Those that aren't at that level won't be doing that exposure.

robf · Post by **robf** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:53 pm

Please point me to something that says you need gym training to shoot safely without clothing.

j-team · Post by **j-team** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:03 pm

robf wrote:Please point me to something that says you need gym training to shoot safely without clothing.

I suggest you do some gym work before you shoot naked. It reduces the anount of giggling and pointing from fellow shooters and spectators.

Eric U · Post by **Eric U** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 8:53 pm

If you want rifle shooters to be washed up at 20 like so many other sports then take away the back support. I know too many shooters who have back problems even with the support. It would be worse without it. I personally wouldn't be against some kind of canvas shooting shorts with cloth legs. But all is just speculation. We'll see what the ISSF comes up with soon enough.

Eric U

bpscCheney · Post by **bpscCheney** » Mon Aug 13, 2012 9:40 pm

I see no need to eliminate supportive clothing. I have shot air rifle without supportive clothing and I personally was not terribly less stable. Really I find that the clothing is just there to keep your back from giving out, much like some Olympic weight lifters. I've even seen some police S.W.A.T. officers who wear a back brace to help with back problems and prevent injury.

Bowman26 · Post by **Bowman26** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:14 pm

There is no reason you shouldn't be able to shoot everything from air rifle to High Power rifles without all the specialized clothing. We shoot silhouette all day standing up offhand with just a loose fitting vest on and have plenty of old guys doing it that have been at it for decades. I shoot nearly every day at my house, granted not for 4 hours but who on this site honestly has 4 hours a day to practice?

Bo

Sparks · Post by **Sparks** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:16 pm

Bowman26 wrote:I shoot nearly every day at my house, granted not for 4 hours but who on this site honestly has 4 hours a day to practice?

4 hours a day, four days a week up until February this year.
And I'm not an extreme example by any means, it's just what it takes to compete.

jhmartin · Post by **jhmartin** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 5:34 pm

Bowman26 wrote:We shoot silhouette all day standing up offhand with just a loose fitting vest on and have plenty of old guys doing it that have been at it for decades. I shoot nearly every day at my house, granted not for 4 hours but who on this site honestly has 4 hours a day to practice?

Bo

Bo ...
Remember that Hunter rifles are what ... 8.5 lbs max? Heavies are 10.2lb max.

That's where most 3-P smallbore rifles begin. Up to 14 lbs in some cases.
Toss some more weight on the rifle and then hold it up all day (well for 2-1/2 minutes at a time anyway).

Then translate over to sporter air ... 7.5 max and even that is too heavy for many kids.

Better to keep folks healthy I think ... especially when you're working with juniors ... take no chances there.

Volker · Post by **Volker** » Thu Aug 16, 2012 6:00 pm

I haven't held a Smallbore or a competition AR in about 15 years, so I can't really talk about the posture... but trying to mimic the position standing in front of the mirror (without jacket) I feel a little like trying olympic walking... pushing the body in positions he usually doesn't go.
Also, just yesterday I had to stand for 75 minutes at a company event without much opportunity to move... I'm fairly sure that after 60 shots the first time I'm toast and in paiiiiin.

So on my plan is already a training regiment (also to get that belly flat because it looks very ugly hanging over the belt).

But also to get a jacket that support my posture, especially the lower back.

RobinC · Post by **RobinC** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:49 am

Why does the ISSF have this mania for changing rules?
If the clothing rules change it will cost hundreds of thousands of ordinary club shooters a fortune in new kit and many will just pack up.

My wife and I are both over 60, we can only shoot air rifle with out physical problems because of the current spec kit and the level of support that it gives, the same applies to developing youngsters.
Any change will decimate the participant level of our sport, but then the ISSF does not care a jot about the grass roots of the sport.

And the few at the top? Their standard would hardly change if they shot naked! And if the specification changed, again their standard would be also be unaffected and the cost of the kit would be covered by sponsorship, it would be just the club shooters whose sport would be ruined.
Just leave the rules alone!!!
Good shooting
Robin

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:01 am

Robin
The rules committee has this insatiable need to make it fair for everyone.
I don't think they will be happy till everyone competes in a swimsuit.
Just my 2 cents

RobStubbs · Post by **RobStubbs** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 2:35 pm

I don't think the reason for rule changes are anything about fairness, rather a desire to make the sport look more tv friendly. Which as we all know is a joke because anyone watching the Olympics will know they didn't even televise the athletes turning to the crowd (they started at the end of sighters). They also appear concerned about the clothing offering too much support. A point I can understand but I don't know how you can safely change that without very significant equipment changes (like take a couple of kg's off the rifles).

Rob.

ramseyoptom · Post by **ramseyoptom** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:13 pm

Being of a slightly cynical nature I wonder how much input the manufacturers of of shooters clothing have?

bruce · Post by **bruce** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 3:20 pm

ramseyoptom wrote:Being of a slightly cynical nature I wonder how much input the manufacturers of of shooters clothing have?

The same as the shooters have. Not much.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:18 pm

Ron Stubbs
I was involved in a rule change a number of years ago,
The rule was you cannot use more than one set of clothes.
The rules committee stated it was unfair to poorer shooters to have more than one set of shooting jackets. At that time many top shooters liked to have one for standing and one for prone and kneeling.

Richard H · Post by **Richard H** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:23 pm

But your allowed to use multiple guns? There's some logic? How's it fair to poorer shooters that don't have a coach or don't have the cutting edge equipment or can't fly around the world to batch test ammo. How about we just have a big barrel of guns and ammo and racks of clothes and you draw for it?

Pat McCoy · Post by **Pat McCoy** » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:09 pm

jhmartin,

Remember the maximum rifles weights are just that, maximums. I think lots of shooters overload themselves with guns that are too heavy. One can always go lighter for better control

As I've aged I've changed from an external adjustment scope (20X Unertl) to much lighter Burris 8x32AR; as well as later taking off a full diameter barrel and installing one from a 1907. It shoots just as good groups from the bench, but I can handle it much better in position.

Added edit: my 4P scores have remained the same over twenty years although I am twenty years older and haven't been able to shoot kneeling for fifteen years (shoot two standings) Doubt if I could do this with the heavier equipment.

sparky · Post by **sparky** » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:31 am

I shot 3-position for years shooting daily without clothing (had a jacket for one year) and didn't have any problems other than lower scores. If the concern is truly about preventing lower back problems, how about limiting supportive clothing to a back brace similar to those used in weightlifting? Anyone try shooting in one to see what it was like?

It's rough enough shelling out $1000-1500 for a used air rifle, but at least if you decide it's not for you, you can recoup most of it by selling the gun. Buying gear that fits you properly usually means buying new at a cost of about $400, unless you get lucky, and it's a lot harder to recoup. It makes the cost of merely trying air rifle very expensive unless you're on a college team that subsidizes or provides the gear.

One of the reasons I chose to go back into the pistol events rather than the rifle events was the astronomically higher costs.

Volker · Post by **Volker** » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:59 pm

I read through the pdf and can’t see that a jacket is mandatory… or am I wrong ?
But if you choose to wear one, they need to follow certain rules and I think the change to current models is that NO pockets are allowed any longer (did anyone get caught putting lead weights in ?).
So I guess that also applies to any other piece of clothing you wear instead…
Guess you could even modify existing jackets or trousers by permanently closing the pockets…
Sorry, I’m really new to this and seeing that I won’t be able to shoot competitively for a long time I’m not overly concerned… but if a jacket is allowed and it makes me shoot better in competition, why should I not use it ?
Yes, it is a cost factor… but so is the rifle/pistol, the range fee, the club membership, a trainer, the gas driving to the range…

Or what exactly is the problem ?!