Air Pistol shooting Lower gun from 12 to 6 oclock

[aksd]

Hello all,

I was wondering is there a particular reason why Air Pistol shooters raise their pistols to 12 o'clock and then bring it down to six before releasing the shot? I personally find it easier to go from rest position to 6 o'clock in the process increase pressure on the trigger until the shot breaks. Is there any dis-advantage to this approach?

Thanks.

Akshay

[Rover]

I think it's because it's easier (less strain) to lower your arm than to raise it. This gives a little finer control.

There is a school of thought where, as you lower the pistol you align the sights while taking up trigger slack and increasing pressure. As the pistol slowly drops into the sub-six position it fires with no hesitation.

I've played with this and found that it requires a pretty good shooter to pull the elements together to properly perform it. It's not a technique for the beginner.

If you're raising the gun and trying to put all the elements together (sight alignment, trigger takeup and squeeze, placement on the target), you're holding up the gun to the point of shake and need to start over.

This doesn't mean you can't have fun.

[aksd]

I've started shooting after a break of about 5 years :D, I used to shoot with the drop to 6 approach and as far I can remember when I stopped I was rather average, between the 550-565 range :D. I suppose the drop to 6 also lets to determine where the black stops and the white begins with less of a distraction. Starting off all over again is giving me an opportunity to experiment :D.

I noticed that provided I keep my "zero" position, align the sights at the base and then slowly raise the pistol maintaining the zero position ensuring a slow increment of pressure on the trigger until you hit the black and then the shot breaks I seem to get tighter group.

On a bit of reflection I think my arm was tiring using the 12 - 6 as I was holding the pistol longer. The better groups using the raise up to 6 may be just because I'm out of shape :D. However I am going to experiment further and play around a little :D.

[RobStubbs]

As rover says its essentially easier to maintain the fine control. So raising the gun uses muscles to pull the gun up, lowering it is just a muscle relaxing. The relaxation bit is a finer and therefore smoother process. Also raising the gun high above the target disengages the shoulder (not sure if it's the rotator cuff) but that also eases smooth movement. Some very good shooters just raise up, but not many, and those I've seen shoot like that have normally reverted back to the more usual over raise.

Rob.

[Gwhite]

I do it so I can get a good focus & sight alignment before dealing with the black.

I have been working on taking up the trigger slack while above the black, and then smoothly applying pressure as I lower into my hold. MOST of the time, this will result in a 10 IF I can get the squeeze roughly right. It doesn't have to go off just as I settle, but within second or so is good. This is mostly with an LP50 with a 2 pound trigger, but the same process works even better on my Morini 162.

There are two ways things go wrong: 1) the shot breaks too soon, and I end up with an 8 at 12:00, or 2) (much more common) I don't get the shot off soon enough, and my hold deteriorates as I try to get the shot to break. At that point, I'm pretty much back to how I used to shoot, holding & squeezing. I've been trying to abort these shots much sooner, and working on a more positive trigger squeeze.

The shots that work according to plan are delightful. Very accurate, and far less tiring than holding for many seconds before the shot breaks. As I get older, minimizing my energy expenditure is a goal in and of itself.

[evolution]

It fits the breathing process before the shot. You fill your lungs with air as you raise the pistol. Then you release 1/3 when you lower to aiming area.

[evolution]

I've started shooting after a break of about 5 years :D, I used to shoot with the drop to 6 approach and as far I can remember when I stopped I was rather average, between the 550-565 range :D. I suppose the drop to 6 also lets to determine where the black stops and the white begins with less of a distraction. Starting off all over again is giving me an opportunity to experiment :D.

I noticed that provided I keep my "zero" position, align the sights at the base and then slowly raise the pistol maintaining the zero position ensuring a slow increment of pressure on the trigger until you hit the black and then the shot breaks I seem to get tighter group.

On a bit of reflection I think my arm was tiring using the 12 - 6 as I was holding the pistol longer. The better groups using the raise up to 6 may be just because I'm out of shape :D. However I am going to experiment further and play around a little :D.

550-565 as an average? You must have some good shooters in the UK

[jliston48]

550-565 as an average? You must have some good shooters in the UK

I would think that this is an "average" score range for reasonably serious competitive shooters at club/local level.

As far as the arm movement, my action is to raise the arm well above the target - perhaps to about 30 degrees above horizontal - then lower to the target or slightly under it then bring up into the aiming area.

Why? I don't really know - I've always done it - but it seems to be a bit of a muscle stretch at the start and maybe positioning shirt/jacket sleeve comfortably before aiming. I'm in the aiming area in under 3 seconds then hoping for a shot release within about another 10 seconds if all goes well.

Trigger pressure does not start to increase until I start settling into the aiming area - especially in 50m pistol - so the same for 10m air pistol (and other slow-fire shots) to keep the technique similar.

In RFP/Standard/CF (Rapid), I take aim the same way in preparation for the series then lower the arm to 45 deg.

Works for me!

[aksd]

@Rover, I completely agree, if you get everything right its spot on a 10, the problem is getting it right each and every time. I was wondering if the bottom to 6 is more "forgiving", especially since you end up holding the pistol in the out-stretched position for a shorter period of time (I guess this also depends on when a shooter reaches their "stable" period during the hold"

@evolution 550-565 was what I was shooting when I was competing on the national level in India (I'm originally from India) and it was on the lower level coming to think about it lol

When you take air in you can also raise the gun and time the pace of inhaling to coincide with stopping at the 6 o'clock

@jliston48 don't you feel if you go back down and come back its an additional strain on the muscles which could be avoided, I used to do this as well

[Crete]

"...then bring up into the aiming area..."

That is my Nemesis.

If my aim drops way too low and I try to raise it I lose the shot completely if I fire, so I just stop there and start all over again.

I never understood why.

Raising-and-lowering yes. Re-raising up to the aiming point is something that I cannot do.

[RandomShotz]

I started out raising the gun to the target. I also tried lowering through the target and could not get comfortable with it. A few months ago, I tried it again, raising the gun past the target, acquiring the sight picture and pre-loading the trigger as it is being lowered and now it makes sense. For a while, I tried lowering to a hold but then I have a tendency to hold too long. Lately I've been practicing the maneuver that Rover mentioned. It is difficult, but I see how it will work once I get the hang of it.

One problem I have is that I often don't lower the gun smoothly - it seems to go smoothly enough until it approaches the aiming area and then lurches. I'm sure the difficulty is psychological as much as physiological but I have been doing exercises holding dumbbells at arm's length and waving them about, starting with a 5# and going to 8# and that seems to be helping.

(Okay, so this post references Rover and mentions dumbbells - I'm asking for it, aren't I?)

Roger

[Rover]

On rare occasions I have been known to bite my tongue.

[jliston48]

@jliston48 don't you feel if you go back down and come back its an additional strain on the muscles which could be avoided, I used to do this as well

The over-raising is for stretching and inhalation. Then dropping to the bottom of the target means a subsequent raise of about 50mm or less than 0.3 degrees of movement! Not much stretching or muscular strain in that!

I think this topic is a bit trivial because once a shooter knows of the basics (and most of us are still struggling with implementing those), there are little idiosyncrasies that we each engage in during our preparation for a shot/series (like all sports - look at golfers, tennis players, etc prior to their performances). Also, watch the champion shooters. They all do things a little differently but they all achieve high-level results.

This topic may be over-analysing something that is highly individual and ultimately will have very little (if any) effect on performance.

[RobStubbs]

@jliston48 don't you feel if you go back down and come back its an additional strain on the muscles which could be avoided, I used to do this as well

The over-raising is for stretching and inhalation. Then dropping to the bottom of the target means a subsequent raise of about 50mm or less than 0.3 degrees of movement! Not much stretching or muscular strain in that!

I think this topic is a bit trivial because once a shooter knows of the basics (and most of us are still struggling with implementing those), there are little idiosyncrasies that we each engage in during our preparation for a shot/series (like all sports - look at golfers, tennis players, etc prior to their performances). Also, watch the champion shooters. They all do things a little differently but they all achieve high-level results.

This topic may be over-analysing something that is highly individual and ultimately will have very little (if any) effect on performance.

I don't agree. I suspect the vast majority of shooters are doing bits wrong or are at best inconsistent. Whilst you're right that a raise from the bottom of the target back up is only a short distance, it is none the less a raise and as such you will have poorer fine muscle control over it. One should strive to lower into the exact aiming area and stay there, if you do you will find performance improves. It's not easy and only you can work out when to apply the brakes on lowering. For me, when I get it right, I slow down as I come into the black with a view to stopping around the middle of the bull. That normally for me allows for a small drift down into the correct aiming area. But like I said we are all different and you need to work out what works best for you.

Rob.

[jliston48]

Whilst you're right that a raise from the bottom of the target back up is only a short distance, it is none the less a raise and as such you will have poorer fine muscle control over it.

This has nothing to do with a fine muscle controlled action. It is a gross motor controlled movement of major muscles in the arm. Fine motor skills involve the small muscles of the body that enable such functions as writing, grasping small objects, and fastening clothing. They involve control over fine/delicate acts and dexterity. It has to do with gripping and trigger control.

One should strive to lower into the exact aiming area and stay there...

From which authoritative coaching source did this come? Besides, I thought you said that we were in agreement that:

you have to work out what works best for you.

you will find performance improves.

It will improve when I achieve REAL fine motor control when I am trying to keep my sights in alignment IN the aiming area (regardless of how I get there) and by trying to keep my arm/wrist involuntary movements to a minimum as I operate the trigger.

I slow down as I come into the black with a view to stopping around the middle of the bull. That normally for me allows for a small drift down into the correct aiming area.

That is different to the action required in RFP or CF/SP(Rapid Stage) or Standard Pistol. My technique is to (in a very minor way) replicate the same approach to the aiming area for consistency.

[RobStubbs]

Jliston,
You can believe what I say or ignore it - it makes no difference to me. You do however have a finer degree of control lowering the arm (relaxing the muscles) than you do in raising that is a scientific fact. If it makes no difference why do you think the vast majority of elite (precision) shooters, choose to shoot that way ?

Rob.

[Rover]

There are a lot of ways to do things.

I had not thought of putting it all together into the coherent system I described until John Zurek (who had been holding out on me) showed me the complete method.

I can't say I have it all together, but it has given me something to work towards. I guess I can also say it's not the only way.

(Just kidding about John. He is very generous with his knowledge and loves to teach. You could contact him at Phoenix Rod & Gun Club where he is a Rangemaster if you wanted some kind of seminar for your club.)

[luftskytter]

Just something I learned the hard way during my active archery days:

I tended to release the shot the moment my sight reached the target centre. This can be very quick and precise when it works, but ended up with the expectation of a correct sight picture triggering the release and developed into "target panic". That term may be wrong/harmful, but it describes the establishing of unwanted reflex reactions thru bad training. My remedy during the decades that have passed since then is mainly to establish a hold within my aiming area before release. Dry fire helps. But those old sins will never disappear completely, and I still struggle to keep my cool and stop that trigger finger from doing things on its own.

The lesson for me has been that it's easier to learn than to forget.

[RandomShotz]

luftskytter:

I am wondering if there isn't something fundamentally different about an archery release and a pistol trigger. As I understand the method that Rover is discussing, trigger pressure is increased as the gun is being lowered and (ideally) the shot breaks when it is in the aiming area. The shooter does not make a decision to shoot but is commits to the process (or aborts the process if it isn't going right).

I have no experience with archery - is the release the same sort of gradual process up to the release or is it necessarily more of a conscious decision?

Roger

[Rover]

I didn't mean it to sound as if the shot was some kind of reflex or panic action when you entered the aiming area.

Since you are coming into it very slowly, you can take a couple of seconds to elegantly finish off your trigger squeeze.

I remember a post on here some time back where a (newish) shooter was trying this technique, but was snatching at the trigger when entering the aiming area. He couldn't understand why it wasn't working for him.