I'm reloading 45 ACP cartridges with 180 gr. SWC cast bullets. The owner of the company (the company and owner shall remain nameless) I bought the bullets from told me that unless I use a "Lyman two-step neck expander M die" to expand the case mouth that I would distort his bullets when seating them because regular case mouth expander dies (such as included in the RCBS 45 cal. carbide die set I own) are designed for jacketed bullets and only flare the case mouth which is not enough expansion to prevent distortion of lead bullets. Lyman's marketing info for their M dies mirrors the advice he gave me.
He also told me that I need to use a seating stem that contacts the ogive of the SWC cast bullet instead of the flat faced seating stem that seats the bullet by pressing down flat against the flat point of the SWC bullet. RCBS does not make a SWC seating stem that fits a 180 gr. SWC ogive, but apparently Lyman does and this bullet company owner further advised me to use the Lyman seater die to prevent ruining his bullets.
I've since learned that the owner of this cast bullet company appears to be related the Lyman family, so I'm now wondering whether his advice to only use these Lyman dies to expand and seat his bullets is based on bias for a familial affiliation or based on actual science and/or his accuracy testing.
Would like to know what everyone's opinion is regarding these different dies for case mouth expansion and whether there's really any big difference betwee bullet seating stems that are flat faced or are design seat a SWC lead cast bullets by stem contact against the bullet ogive only....and whether you think his advice is on target or off base?
Thanks!
Cast Bullet Reloading Questions
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Cast Bullets
If your bullets mike out at .452 then an expander/flare die of .451 shoutd be OK. On ebay or our forum a guy named Steve Bathe makes a bullet seating stem which seats on the SWC shelf-which is pretty good.
What the bullet caster was telling you was good advice.
What you don't want to do is reduce the diameter of your cast bullets when you seat your bullet into the brass. If your expander is not properly sizing the inside of the case then when you seat the bullet you could reduce the diameter of your cast bullet and thus destroy accuracy.
The best way to tell if you need a "M" die is to seat a bullet and then pull it and measure it. If the diameter is affected then you may need a larger neck sizer. The RCBS "Cowboy" dies have larger than normal neck sizing to allow for cast bullets.
To seat a SWC bullet, it is best to push on the shoulder of the bullet. Have the stem of your seater contoured so that it makes contact with the shoulder and not pushing on the nose of the bullet. Pushing on the shoulder will align the bullet up with the brass and help eliminate more bullet distortion.
What you don't want to do is reduce the diameter of your cast bullets when you seat your bullet into the brass. If your expander is not properly sizing the inside of the case then when you seat the bullet you could reduce the diameter of your cast bullet and thus destroy accuracy.
The best way to tell if you need a "M" die is to seat a bullet and then pull it and measure it. If the diameter is affected then you may need a larger neck sizer. The RCBS "Cowboy" dies have larger than normal neck sizing to allow for cast bullets.
To seat a SWC bullet, it is best to push on the shoulder of the bullet. Have the stem of your seater contoured so that it makes contact with the shoulder and not pushing on the nose of the bullet. Pushing on the shoulder will align the bullet up with the brass and help eliminate more bullet distortion.
It also depends on how hard your bullet is. Most manufacturers use an alloy so hard, you couldn't swage a bullet down with the brass if you tried. Even swaged bullets nowadays test about 10 - 11 BHN. I use the standard expander that is used on a Dillon powder measure and it doesn't feel like it is doing much and I would certainly try what you already have before jumping to conclusions. -- Bill --
M dies and Pistol brass
I have to agree with a lot of the previous post. Most bullet are now way to hard (in my opinion) for target velocities. But you add that with the thin wall of the 45 ACP and I don't see much case swaging happening.
One thing about the M die and pistol brass is you have to make sure it is set properly or it will overwork the brass, creating short brass life. Most of the belling pieces will open up the case mouth enough to get the bullet to seat, especially with the bevel based bullets.
One thing about the M die and pistol brass is you have to make sure it is set properly or it will overwork the brass, creating short brass life. Most of the belling pieces will open up the case mouth enough to get the bullet to seat, especially with the bevel based bullets.
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Ernie Rodriguez
- Posts: 344
- Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 1:50 pm
- Location: Tennessee
Reloading Soft Bullets
I have found, when reloading soft lead bullets,such as commercially swaged bullets,this method works best for me. In the interest of less wear and tear on the brass as well as ease of the expanding step I use a LEE oversized carbide resizing/decapping die. From Dave Wilson I use an expander/belling stem about .001 or so smaller than the diameter of bullet being used.From Steve Bathe I use his SWC seating stem for SWC bullets.From Redding I use a Profile Crimp die-which puts a slight taper crimp and a slight roll crimp on finished cartridge. This Profile Crimp affords mimimum deformation/swaging action on softer bullets. I have also found,by actual testing of swaged bullets,the BHN is about 10 to 16. Hope this info helps someone.Cheers
I have Redding dies for my 45 acp. I e-mailed Redding and asked if they make a seating stem that just contacts the shoulders of a SWC and they said yes they do. The person asked for my address and Redding sent out a new seating stem at no charge to me. It's wonderfull to be able to use the same die without having to adjust it if I want to try different SWC's from different manufacturers. Once the sweet spot is found for your barrel you will never have to adjust it again no matter who's SWC you use.
Kirmdog
Kirmdog
Are you using this Redding stem to seat 185 gr. LSWC bullet or the heavier 230 gr. bullets?Kirmdog wrote:I have Redding dies for my 45 acp. I e-mailed Redding and asked if they make a seating stem that just contacts the shoulders of a SWC and they said yes they do. The person asked for my address and Redding sent out a new seating stem at no charge to me. It's wonderfull to be able to use the same die without having to adjust it if I want to try different SWC's from different manufacturers. Once the sweet spot is found for your barrel you will never have to adjust it again no matter who's SWC you use.
Kirmdog
I made a similar call and request to RCBS for my .45 ACP carbide die set. After explaining to the RCBS customer service representative what I was told by the bullet manufacturer about the stem having to contact the ogive instead of pushing straight down on the meplat of the LSWC he responded that yes that is the proper way to seat LSWC bullets. The RCBS rep then searched his parts database and found a SWC stem for my die set and mailed it to me at no charge. However, when I received it I found that stem cavity was too wide to contact the ogive of a 185 gr. LSWC bullet. It does however appear to be designed to contact the wider ogive of a 230 gr. bullet. Unfortunately, this leaves me back where I started with no stem to seat against the ogive of my 185 gr. LSWC bullets. This weekend I am going to test some of the seating stems included with a few of my RCBS rifle die sets to see if any of them might work. If not then I'll probably see about getting a Redding seater die and stem like you have, provided it is one that will work with the 185 gr. bullets.
If you want a custom die so you can seat on the ogive, just put some JB Weld into a seater that fits over the nose while putting a thin coating of wax on the bullet. Put it in your press and push them together and wait until it gets hard. This even works for your sizer if you like to push on the ogive. -- Bill --
Every one of the guys above have given you good advice. But...
The whole thing is not that fussy.
Seat the bullet so that if you drop a round into the barrel the base is flush with the barrel hood. That takes care of all headspace issues.
Use a roll crimp for better accuracy; you've already taken care of headspace.
The hot glue on the bullet seater works great and is easily removed when you screw it all up. Epoxy works, too.
You are unlikely to change bullet diameter when seating; the bullets are too hard. I like swaged bullets for better uniformity (Speer, Hornady, etc.).
Go practice. You'll have better performance than when messing with this stuff!
The whole thing is not that fussy.
Seat the bullet so that if you drop a round into the barrel the base is flush with the barrel hood. That takes care of all headspace issues.
Use a roll crimp for better accuracy; you've already taken care of headspace.
The hot glue on the bullet seater works great and is easily removed when you screw it all up. Epoxy works, too.
You are unlikely to change bullet diameter when seating; the bullets are too hard. I like swaged bullets for better uniformity (Speer, Hornady, etc.).
Go practice. You'll have better performance than when messing with this stuff!
I would like to add that you won't appreciably change diameter on a 45 but other bullets notibly with a 9 mm the change will be dramatic and potentially disasterous as far as accuracy goes.
I guess it is a matter of opinion but I would never roll crimp a 45. Taper to .470 probably and if it still catches on the edge of the chamber, go to .469. I feel that a roll crimp only works well when you have a groove because it won't curl over evenly and goes more to the weakest side making things out of sync. I don't even like to do it on a full wadcutter because a non square front or different length on the brass can give an uneven crimp and an uneven start. When manufacturers do this on their wadcutters, they are using new brass. -- Bill --
I guess it is a matter of opinion but I would never roll crimp a 45. Taper to .470 probably and if it still catches on the edge of the chamber, go to .469. I feel that a roll crimp only works well when you have a groove because it won't curl over evenly and goes more to the weakest side making things out of sync. I don't even like to do it on a full wadcutter because a non square front or different length on the brass can give an uneven crimp and an uneven start. When manufacturers do this on their wadcutters, they are using new brass. -- Bill --
The seating stem just touches the shoulder of the SWC. It does not touch the ogive or the meplat at all. Once the depth of seating is determend with the SWC I'm using I can switch to any other SWC made by anybody and it's seated to the proper depth for my gun. Doesn't matter if it's a 165,185 or 200 grain bullet as long as it's a SWC. I regularly switch between Magnus 185's either HP or solid, Magnus 200 grain and can even use the Magnus cast 185 grain Button Nose without having to chance the setting on my seating die. I don't know of anyone that makes a 230 grain SWC but I'm sure it would work for that also..BAMO wrote:Are you using this Redding stem to seat 185 gr. LSWC bullet or the heavier 230 gr. bullets?Kirmdog wrote:I have Redding dies for my 45 acp. I e-mailed Redding and asked if they make a seating stem that just contacts the shoulders of a SWC and they said yes they do. The person asked for my address and Redding sent out a new seating stem at no charge to me. It's wonderfull to be able to use the same die without having to adjust it if I want to try different SWC's from different manufacturers. Once the sweet spot is found for your barrel you will never have to adjust it again no matter who's SWC you use.
Kirmdog
I made a similar call and request to RCBS for my .45 ACP carbide die set. After explaining to the RCBS customer service representative what I was told by the bullet manufacturer about the stem having to contact the ogive instead of pushing straight down on the meplat of the LSWC he responded that yes that is the proper way to seat LSWC bullets. The RCBS rep then searched his parts database and found a SWC stem for my die set and mailed it to me at no charge. However, when I received it I found that stem cavity was too wide to contact the ogive of a 185 gr. LSWC bullet. It does however appear to be designed to contact the wider ogive of a 230 gr. bullet. Unfortunately, this leaves me back where I started with no stem to seat against the ogive of my 185 gr. LSWC bullets. This weekend I am going to test some of the seating stems included with a few of my RCBS rifle die sets to see if any of them might work. If not then I'll probably see about getting a Redding seater die and stem like you have, provided it is one that will work with the 185 gr. bullets.
Perhaps the RCBS rep sent you the wrong one?
Kirmdog