Yes I know spend as much as you can afford.....
In order of my meager knowledge of 22 auto out of the box with custom grips, triggers.... I am venturing into the darkside from rifle to pistol. Open sights to start with a longer range goal of a dot after I start climbing the scoreboard with the basics. Yes some models come with rails for dot systems or can be or cannot be retro-fitted.
1-SW41
2-HS Victor
3-Ruger ll, lll, slabsides, bull barrels etc
4-Sig Hammerli Xesse
5-Sig Trailside
6-SW 22A1
7-Walter P22
8-Browning Buckmark
Have I forgotten any? (I am certain)
Rearrange in your opinion and with pity comments if possible.
22 bullseye starter guns
Moderators: pilkguns, m1963, Isabel1130
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
Yes, You should consider a Marvel conversion on a dedicated 1911 frame. There is a rail available that will accomodate both irons and a dot, and it certainly wont be much more expensive than the Model 41. The reason this gun should be at the top of your list if you want to do bullseye, is that it is the most like the 45 which you are probably going to have to shoot if you move up to 2700's.
There are a number of clubs that have bullseye matches in the DFW area. Dallas Pistol Club probably has the most attendees to matches, but there is a very long waiting list to join if you want to practice (matches are open to all). Haltom City is on the east side of Fort Worth, so of the three, closest to NAS.
Dallas Pistol Club - www.dallaspistolclub.com/
Haltom City Rifle and Pistol Club - www.haltomcityrpc.org/
Terrell Rifle and Pistol Club - www.tr-pc.com/
Dallas Pistol Club - www.dallaspistolclub.com/
Haltom City Rifle and Pistol Club - www.haltomcityrpc.org/
Terrell Rifle and Pistol Club - www.tr-pc.com/
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Philadelphia
- Posts: 170
- Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm
Re: 22 bullseye starter guns
Remove the P22 from the list. Fun plinker but that's all it is.Xman wrote:Yes I know spend as much as you can afford.....
In order of my meager knowledge of 22 auto out of the box with custom grips, triggers.... I am venturing into the darkside from rifle to pistol. Open sights to start with a longer range goal of a dot after I start climbing the scoreboard with the basics. Yes some models come with rails for dot systems or can be or cannot be retro-fitted.
1-SW41
2-HS Victor
3-Ruger ll, lll, slabsides, bull barrels etc
4-Sig Hammerli Xesse
5-Sig Trailside
6-SW 22A1
7-Walter P22
8-Browning Buckmark
Have I forgotten any? (I am certain)
Rearrange in your opinion and with pity comments if possible.
Add consideration of IZH 35. You can get a used one for under a thousand. If money isn't a big deal, add Feinwerkbau AW93.
Have fun.
I'd forget the Hammerli, they dont exist anymore as such, parts are impossible to get, and first series had barrel problems. You see the 208/215 a lot, but same, parts, problem.
I'd forget a new HS Victor; they're not made like they used to anymore. The old one's are good though, allthough they're 'oldstyle', that is, heavy! Try before you buy! I had 1, and they're very easy to shoot and accurate, allthough VERY sensitive to magazine problems and cant cope with high velocity (the old one's). These are (well, wére) real matchpistols those days.
Buckmark: we have them at our gunclub; very good, universal, pistols. They can shoot 360s with ease.
Ruger, same thing.
Dont know the others.
But there are lóts of (older)matchguns to be had: Benelli, Erma, FN, etc.
I'd forget a new HS Victor; they're not made like they used to anymore. The old one's are good though, allthough they're 'oldstyle', that is, heavy! Try before you buy! I had 1, and they're very easy to shoot and accurate, allthough VERY sensitive to magazine problems and cant cope with high velocity (the old one's). These are (well, wére) real matchpistols those days.
Buckmark: we have them at our gunclub; very good, universal, pistols. They can shoot 360s with ease.
Ruger, same thing.
Dont know the others.
But there are lóts of (older)matchguns to be had: Benelli, Erma, FN, etc.
I have a Clark custom Ruger MKII that is new, I ordered it with the most complete package they offered back then. Its an older, and I think, better gun than the newer builds. Mr Clark himself worked on it.
Even has the Clark grips that feel more like 1911 to make an easier transition between guns in competition. See my listing in the classified section, complete with Ultradot
Even has the Clark grips that feel more like 1911 to make an easier transition between guns in competition. See my listing in the classified section, complete with Ultradot
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mr alexander
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:47 pm
.22 Bullseye Starter Guns
I started shooting B.E. in 1978. If I had to start all over again today, I would buy a S&W Model 41. Yes, they are a little pricey, but I think they hold a high resale value if that's a concern of your's. Begin with the pistol "as-is"; as you improve, you can have it upgraded by Clark Custom Guns. They offer true match grade replacement barrels as well as great
trigger jobs for the M-41. Herretts has off-the-shelf and custom grips available. The factory stock barrel comes drilled and tapped, thus making attachment of a scope base and dot sight an easy proposition. The Clark barrels come with an integral Weaver-type base machined right into the top of the barrel. The M-41 does have a grip angle that's similar to that found on the 1911. Back in '78, I bought a H.S. Victor which, being an older pistol, was still made in Connecticut. Great gun, but the quality of the magazines was not always consistent. Even after having the feed lips adjusted properly, some failed to work after a while as the feed lips spread apart from use! Others have said this was due to the substandard steel used and improper heat treatment of the magazine tubes. Even with the few good mags I own, they are sensitive to ammunition type/brand for reliable functioning. If I fail to clean the inside of the magazines before each day's shooting, I run a good risk of having a feeding problem. A quick wipe inside the tube with a Q-Tip soaked in Hoppe's Solvent, followed by a dry one to mop up, seems to help things along. I would definitely stay away from the "new" High Standards made in Texas; they are not the same owners as the original firm that had been in Connecticut. Lots of complaints about product quality and poor factory service. The Rugers are solid, well made guns for starting out. Clark Custom, among others, offer upgrades. Rugers are known for being very reliable. Buckmarks are very reliable as well. To the best of my knowledge, all of their models come with aluminum alloy frames; none are made of steel. This makes the pistols somewhat lighter, which may change how they balance in the hand. Some Brownings come with integral Weaver bases already attached from the factory while others can have a separate Browning-supplied base installed by the owner which requires removal of an iron sight rail that's held in place with 2 screws. I don't have any experience with the others models you mentioned.
trigger jobs for the M-41. Herretts has off-the-shelf and custom grips available. The factory stock barrel comes drilled and tapped, thus making attachment of a scope base and dot sight an easy proposition. The Clark barrels come with an integral Weaver-type base machined right into the top of the barrel. The M-41 does have a grip angle that's similar to that found on the 1911. Back in '78, I bought a H.S. Victor which, being an older pistol, was still made in Connecticut. Great gun, but the quality of the magazines was not always consistent. Even after having the feed lips adjusted properly, some failed to work after a while as the feed lips spread apart from use! Others have said this was due to the substandard steel used and improper heat treatment of the magazine tubes. Even with the few good mags I own, they are sensitive to ammunition type/brand for reliable functioning. If I fail to clean the inside of the magazines before each day's shooting, I run a good risk of having a feeding problem. A quick wipe inside the tube with a Q-Tip soaked in Hoppe's Solvent, followed by a dry one to mop up, seems to help things along. I would definitely stay away from the "new" High Standards made in Texas; they are not the same owners as the original firm that had been in Connecticut. Lots of complaints about product quality and poor factory service. The Rugers are solid, well made guns for starting out. Clark Custom, among others, offer upgrades. Rugers are known for being very reliable. Buckmarks are very reliable as well. To the best of my knowledge, all of their models come with aluminum alloy frames; none are made of steel. This makes the pistols somewhat lighter, which may change how they balance in the hand. Some Brownings come with integral Weaver bases already attached from the factory while others can have a separate Browning-supplied base installed by the owner which requires removal of an iron sight rail that's held in place with 2 screws. I don't have any experience with the others models you mentioned.
Hi XMAN, of all those pistols that you listed, High Standard Hamden or Hartford versions are
excelllent used gun choices; and the latest stainless steel Houston Victors, or
Trophys are better choices than the S&W model 41s. I've shot both 41s and an
HS Trophy, the Trophy has a much better trigger and much better sights than
the 41. I shoot open sight only, so if you're going to use a dot or scope then
factory sights don't matter. If you want to jump in as cheaply as possible,
then a Browning Buckmark Camper with a Heggis Trigger spring flip is a great
start.
Tony
excelllent used gun choices; and the latest stainless steel Houston Victors, or
Trophys are better choices than the S&W model 41s. I've shot both 41s and an
HS Trophy, the Trophy has a much better trigger and much better sights than
the 41. I shoot open sight only, so if you're going to use a dot or scope then
factory sights don't matter. If you want to jump in as cheaply as possible,
then a Browning Buckmark Camper with a Heggis Trigger spring flip is a great
start.
Tony
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mr alexander
- Posts: 202
- Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2011 2:47 pm
.22 Starter Bullseye Guns
Xman,
Just a few more added comments to my previous post that came to mind:
Ruger MK III- All steel pistol (frame, receiver and barrel). Comes from the factory with the receiver already drilled and tapped, making scope base attachment easy. Magazine release in same position on pistol as a 1911's. Like the earlier MK II, it has a grip angle offset 30 degrees from a true vertical position with respect to the barrel. This newer, "improved" model has a loaded chamber indicator as well as a magazine disconnect safety. Because of these additions, pistolsmiths tend to charge more for trigger work on these guns. Due to the complexity of the design, the disassembly/reassembly procedure is rather difficult. I can recall reading a write-up in a past issue of "Gun Tests" magazine about the MK III. A staff member had "fits" with takedown and reassembly.
Ruger MK II- Also all steel construction; same 30 degree grip angle. Magazine release is at the heel of the grip frame, making magazine changes a bit slower, but this isn't an issue for B. E. shooting. Earlier versions did not come drill/tapped from the factory, but a gunsmith can
machine base screw holes into the receiver for you. Aftermarket Weaver
bases are readily available from a number of firms. Later versions did come factory drilled and tapped. These pistols do not have the magazine disconnect or the loaded chamber indicator, making it a simpler design to take apart and put back together. Some claim that a pistolsmith can deliver a superior trigger job on the MK II's than on the MK III's as there are fewer internal parts to contend with. Although no longer made, Ruger still offers plenty of replacement parts for them. If you like the features, I would personally buy a MK II over a Mark III. A gun show may be a good place to find a used one.
Ruger 22/45- Has a grip angle offset 15 degrees from a true vertical position with respect to the bore. It offers a grip angle just like a 1911's, thus the name "22/45". Some prefer this feature as they feel the grip angle on the all-steel MK II/Mk III's is too "open". This model has a polymer frame however, which changes the balance of the pistol. Ruger has come out recently with a MK III "RP" version of it; this one comes with replaceable 1911-type grip panels which should make it easy to install a set of custom stocks. Mag release is in the same position as a 1911's. The earlier MK II versions of the 22/45 did not come with the mag disconnect or the loaded chamber indicator while the newer MK III's have these added parts. Older MK II 22/45's were not drilled and tapped at the factory for scope bases, but a pistolsmith can machine the 3 holes needed into the receiver. Ruger still supplies factory parts for them.
Ruger Upgrades- If you go with any Ruger, both Volquartsen Custom and Clark Custom Guns offer replacement match barrels, trigger parts, scope bases, sights etc. Both firms offer custom gunsmithing services as well.
Browning Buckmark- Many diiferent versions of it are available. I do not know of anyone who offers replacement trigger/action parts for them. Also unaware of there being any aftermarket match barrels either. The barrel is secured to the frame with a single screw which is located in the front of the trigger guard making it easy to remove. The feed ramp is not integral with the barrel, but is a separate piece that's also held in place with 1 screw. It would be a rather easy job for a pistolsmith to make a match barrel to fit this design if you wanted to that route.
Welcome to the Bullseye Community and Good Luck to you!!
Just a few more added comments to my previous post that came to mind:
Ruger MK III- All steel pistol (frame, receiver and barrel). Comes from the factory with the receiver already drilled and tapped, making scope base attachment easy. Magazine release in same position on pistol as a 1911's. Like the earlier MK II, it has a grip angle offset 30 degrees from a true vertical position with respect to the barrel. This newer, "improved" model has a loaded chamber indicator as well as a magazine disconnect safety. Because of these additions, pistolsmiths tend to charge more for trigger work on these guns. Due to the complexity of the design, the disassembly/reassembly procedure is rather difficult. I can recall reading a write-up in a past issue of "Gun Tests" magazine about the MK III. A staff member had "fits" with takedown and reassembly.
Ruger MK II- Also all steel construction; same 30 degree grip angle. Magazine release is at the heel of the grip frame, making magazine changes a bit slower, but this isn't an issue for B. E. shooting. Earlier versions did not come drill/tapped from the factory, but a gunsmith can
machine base screw holes into the receiver for you. Aftermarket Weaver
bases are readily available from a number of firms. Later versions did come factory drilled and tapped. These pistols do not have the magazine disconnect or the loaded chamber indicator, making it a simpler design to take apart and put back together. Some claim that a pistolsmith can deliver a superior trigger job on the MK II's than on the MK III's as there are fewer internal parts to contend with. Although no longer made, Ruger still offers plenty of replacement parts for them. If you like the features, I would personally buy a MK II over a Mark III. A gun show may be a good place to find a used one.
Ruger 22/45- Has a grip angle offset 15 degrees from a true vertical position with respect to the bore. It offers a grip angle just like a 1911's, thus the name "22/45". Some prefer this feature as they feel the grip angle on the all-steel MK II/Mk III's is too "open". This model has a polymer frame however, which changes the balance of the pistol. Ruger has come out recently with a MK III "RP" version of it; this one comes with replaceable 1911-type grip panels which should make it easy to install a set of custom stocks. Mag release is in the same position as a 1911's. The earlier MK II versions of the 22/45 did not come with the mag disconnect or the loaded chamber indicator while the newer MK III's have these added parts. Older MK II 22/45's were not drilled and tapped at the factory for scope bases, but a pistolsmith can machine the 3 holes needed into the receiver. Ruger still supplies factory parts for them.
Ruger Upgrades- If you go with any Ruger, both Volquartsen Custom and Clark Custom Guns offer replacement match barrels, trigger parts, scope bases, sights etc. Both firms offer custom gunsmithing services as well.
Browning Buckmark- Many diiferent versions of it are available. I do not know of anyone who offers replacement trigger/action parts for them. Also unaware of there being any aftermarket match barrels either. The barrel is secured to the frame with a single screw which is located in the front of the trigger guard making it easy to remove. The feed ramp is not integral with the barrel, but is a separate piece that's also held in place with 1 screw. It would be a rather easy job for a pistolsmith to make a match barrel to fit this design if you wanted to that route.
Welcome to the Bullseye Community and Good Luck to you!!
Top contender right now is a Buckmark
Considering $$ I can get a used or new for 365-410, 5.5 barrel with rail and the contour grips ( that I WILL replace in time to match my IZZY hopefully).
Yes mags are $ 27-33 and wil new a few xtras.
Have parted ways with a 38 and 9mm and hopefully soon a bushnell spacemaster ll zoom with an additional 20x eyepiece to make up the $$ difference. Reloading equipmet and lots of .223 brass and dies for 223 38/357 and 9mm too. So maybe by the end of June I can start my move to the darkside (lol been MAINLY a rifle guy all my life...just funnin)
Yes mags are $ 27-33 and wil new a few xtras.
Have parted ways with a 38 and 9mm and hopefully soon a bushnell spacemaster ll zoom with an additional 20x eyepiece to make up the $$ difference. Reloading equipmet and lots of .223 brass and dies for 223 38/357 and 9mm too. So maybe by the end of June I can start my move to the darkside (lol been MAINLY a rifle guy all my life...just funnin)
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bachekermooni
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 9:33 am
- Location: SoCal
Re: .22 Starter Bullseye Guns
There is a bunch of upgrades for a buckmark. Just go to:mr alexander wrote:Xman,
Browning Buckmark- Many diiferent versions of it are available. I do not know of anyone who offers replacement trigger/action parts for them. Also unaware of there being any aftermarket match barrels either. The barrel is secured to the frame with a single screw which is located in the front of the trigger guard making it easy to remove. The feed ramp is not integral with the barrel, but is a separate piece that's also held in place with 1 screw. It would be a rather easy job for a pistolsmith to make a match barrel to fit this design if you wanted to that route.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/fo ... y.php?f=17
Barrels, comps, triggers, grips, mods, ... My 14 year old $200 Buckmark standard shoots as well as my Trailside - if not better.
Re: Top contender right now is a Buckmark
Ruger MK II CompetitionXman wrote:Considering $$ I can get a used or new for 365-410, 5.5 barrel with rail and the contour grips ( that I WILL replace in time to match my IZZY hopefully).
Best bang for the buck. It's stupid looking, but it shoots high master scores.
I never had misfeeds, it fed almost every ammunition, it's easy to clean, it had a good trigger, and it has a good price tag. I would not go with a Buckmark.
I would avoid a High Standard.
The CT versions are wonderful guns but they have no feed ramp and are magazine dependent. Finding properly feeding magazines, IMO, is very difficult. Even with the alignment tools available, I have issues getting reliability.
Also, quality parts are getting harder and more expensive. I know a few gunsmiths who won't work on them anymore.
I agree with a Ruger Mark II as a near indestructible pistol. I have heard good things about the S&W 22A, but have no first hand experience.
Best,
dsd
The CT versions are wonderful guns but they have no feed ramp and are magazine dependent. Finding properly feeding magazines, IMO, is very difficult. Even with the alignment tools available, I have issues getting reliability.
Also, quality parts are getting harder and more expensive. I know a few gunsmiths who won't work on them anymore.
I agree with a Ruger Mark II as a near indestructible pistol. I have heard good things about the S&W 22A, but have no first hand experience.
Best,
dsd
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Levergun59
- Posts: 251
- Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:37 am
- Location: Silver Lake WI
Anything that says Hamden on the side can make it to Perry. Yes only the original clips function well. I've shot there with a slant gripped Citation and a Victor. Both were sandbagged at an inch or less at 50yds. I also have an Aikman chambered Mcgowan barrel that ransom rests into a dime at 50yds. Floyd made these barrels for the MMU in the early 90's. Just don't throw High Standards on the scrap heap just yet.
Also, another obscure item from the past is a Giles 45. He made his own sights with round tumblers on both sides of the rear sight. Extraordinary workmanship. John used titanium or hardened pins to achieve lockup and a carbide insert for the sear. I wouldn't put a preset notion on what you should look for as these treasures do pop up from time to time. Hope this helps
Chris
Also, another obscure item from the past is a Giles 45. He made his own sights with round tumblers on both sides of the rear sight. Extraordinary workmanship. John used titanium or hardened pins to achieve lockup and a carbide insert for the sear. I wouldn't put a preset notion on what you should look for as these treasures do pop up from time to time. Hope this helps
Chris
I would agree with DSD to not buy a High Standard. However this only goes for the newer guns. The old ones especially the early Hartford models and all the Hamden models are among the best that are available. The only way you could do better is if you happen to be among the people that don't like the grip angle as well as the angle on a different brand, however they were available in both slant as well as military grip angle with a lot of custom grips made for all of the models. I have heard that the newest High Standards are of good quality again but I haven't seen one being used anywhere so I doubt it is true and am dubious to say the least. I have all kinds of magazines that will work in my Citation military grip and from several different vendors. They usually do need to be adjusted before they will work which is fairly simple.-- Bill --