10m Air rifle (standing) balance point

[peashooter]

Where should the rifle's balance point be? I know personal preference will come into it, but is there a "rule of thumb" for this?

[TerryKuz]

I can tell you what works best for me. Balance is where I place the rifle on the top of my glove, or the balance is slightly forward of that position. If it is too heavy up front the momentum is hard to stop, if it is too light it lacks the weight to dampen movement. Again that is what I determined by trial. Good luck.

[RobinC]

The bibles, the MEC books "Air Rifle shooting" and "The Ways of the Rifle" suggest ballance point 2cm in front of the hand position, the modern trend is and I know some very good standing shooters who have it behind the hand.
I think this makes the rifle more planted but does require a lot of weight in the butt, if you look at some pictures of current good air rifle shooters you will see a lot of weights between buttplate and pistol grip.
Its still a bit of personal preference and different coaches advise different approaches and butt heavy can then make the rifle feel as if it may swing easily or go into a sway. To counter this its not quite as simple as ballance point, I set up my shooters with a spread of weight, with light weight over and just in front of the hand (5 -8cm) and then a lot in the butt which brings the ballance just rearward of the hand, its easier to start with a basic rifle that is light such as the LG400.
Wished you'd never asked now?
Good shooting
Robin

[robf]

I'd go with above the support hand as a guide, then tailor to suit.

One problem though is most tailor their support hand's position to the weight/balance point, as that feels more natural.

Instead, set the position up without the rifle, see where the support hand likes to be, then see where the balance point is. Then adjust to suit. It's amazing how far people will push their hand forward just to support the weight, even though they require some or more muscle power.

The catch is with 3p your support point moves... ;)

Tyre weights are self adhesive, cheap, and can be positioned anywere with ease and are designed to be waterproof, yet easily removed. You can get a couple of kilo's for a few £/$'s delivered and the excess can go to your club mates for them to play with.

I'd go with weight back. I shot with weight forward for a while, but masses at the back makes it feel more planted and it doesn't feel like it's falling away. Close in and planted seems to feel much better, for me, but it's early days.

[peashooter]

Interested to try this but not sure how to set up the position exactly without the rifle? Make a simple wooden replica rifle?

[RobinC]

Interested to try this but not sure how to set up the position exactly without the rifle? Make a simple wooden replica rifle?

Just stand there in position and imagine the rifle. That as Rob says gives you where your hands want to go and feel most natural, that will give an unstressed position, I start with asking them to put their hands/arms in a boxing defence stance and then trim from there.
I use tyre weights and if there is a space where I want a big lump, mould it from old pellets.
Hours of amusement ahead!
Good shooting
Robin

[robf]

Interested to try this but not sure how to set up the position exactly without the rifle? Make a simple wooden replica rifle?

Not really. Just imagine and feel how your position should be. Feel where things feel more balanced and relaxed. Feel where bone is being used and muscle tension dialed out. Get a mate to put a camera on a shelf or something solid way back away from the position and zoom in ( don't stick it close and zoom out, it causes distortion), take a photo. Now pick up a rifle and compare after another photo.

Often there will be some necessary adaptation, as the forward elbow is helped by weight to plant on the hip, but you'll be surprised how much people reach forward to support a rifle that has more reach dialed in than a relaxed position would like, and weight that is further forward which demands the hand goes forward to support. Hips compensate for a rifle who's POI is actually higher or lower than the target, neck tension builds from a butt position which is incorrect. All stuff we do subconsciously to varying degrees when something isn't quite right.

Get the position as good as you can, then make the rifle fit it.

If you use a prop, there's a tendency for the body to adapt to it. You want things to adapt to you.

Most people though support the rifle around it's centre of gravity. Make the centre of gravity where you want to support it instead.

Weight is important because even when things fit, if it's not right the rifle can feel awkward. Many people often report of a rifle feeling as if it's going away from them, demanding muscle to maintain position, or a balancing trick. Getting the weight right can reduce this sensation.

Takes a few circles of refinement, and it's worth getting someone to look over your position to check it conforms to the basics, but it can help a lot with rifles feeling "unnatural"

After that you can refine, group test and widen the assessment to see how it measures in real world performance. Having a clear goal is important, but many start fiddling with stock setup with the simple goal of "i want this to feel better"... so start with the feeling, pay attention to it, make it fit you, and see how that feels afterwards. The you can assess if feeling better helps you shoot better... but give it some time. Changes are as good as a rest, and they need time to prove themselves.

[peashooter]

Have been trying a few things based on peoples' advice. Unfortunately my rifle's cog is too far forward. If I add enough weight to the butt to bring the cog to my desired hand position ( a whole dive weight) I'm way over the weight limit, but boy it feels planted! I will have to settle for the rifles cog to be some 60mm in front of my hand contact point, but its not so bad - rifle settles well for me. Looks like another good reason for a new rifle though........ :)

[RobinC]

Have been trying a few things based on peoples' advice. Unfortunately my rifle's cog is too far forward. If I add enough weight to the butt to bring the cog to my desired hand position ( a whole dive weight) I'm way over the weight limit, but boy it feels planted! I will have to settle for the rifles cog to be some 60mm in front of my hand contact point, but its not so bad - rifle settles well for me. Looks like another good reason for a new rifle though........ :)

This is sadly the case with some rifles, FWB's are quite muzzle biased, and I find them the most difficult to get rearward ballanced. Look to see what weight you can get out of the muzzle first, take off muzzle weights and any weight in the front of the stock. If you are not tall then shorten the stock, that will bring the stock back and the hand position forward, hopefully over the ballance point, if you are tall move your left hand position forward. Ballance is very important to your ability to shoot well, I use a Walther LG400 alutec but my wife was so manic in her desire to get the perfect ballance and feel that we built her a Walther LG400 action in a Walther 300 Junior stock.
Many of the new rifles are inherantly light so you have more scope to add weight to get good ballance, I'm biased to Walther, but I think the LG400 is the best for adjustability of ballance and weight. I've not seen one but I'm hearing from those that have, that the new FWB 800 is the first FWB that is not muzzle biased.
Have fun Shooting
Robin

[peashooter]

Interested to try this but not sure how to set up the position exactly without the rifle? Make a simple wooden replica rifle?

Not really. Just imagine and feel how your position should be. Feel where things feel more balanced and relaxed. Feel where bone is being used and muscle tension dialed out. Get a mate to put a camera on a shelf or something solid way back away from the position and zoom in ( don't stick it close and zoom out, it causes distortion), take a photo. Now pick up a rifle and compare after another photo.

Often there will be some necessary adaptation, as the forward elbow is helped by weight to plant on the hip, but you'll be surprised how much people reach forward to support a rifle that has more reach dialed in than a relaxed position would like, and weight that is further forward which demands the hand goes forward to support. Hips compensate for a rifle who's POI is actually higher or lower than the target, neck tension builds from a butt position which is incorrect. All stuff we do subconsciously to varying degrees when something isn't quite right.

Get the position as good as you can, then make the rifle fit it.

If you use a prop, there's a tendency for the body to adapt to it. You want things to adapt to you.

Most people though support the rifle around it's centre of gravity. Make the centre of gravity where you want to support it instead.

Weight is important because even when things fit, if it's not right the rifle can feel awkward. Many people often report of a rifle feeling as if it's going away from them, demanding muscle to maintain position, or a balancing trick. Getting the weight right can reduce this sensation.

Takes a few circles of refinement, and it's worth getting someone to look over your position to check it conforms to the basics, but it can help a lot with rifles feeling "unnatural"

After that you can refine, group test and widen the assessment to see how it measures in real world performance. Having a clear goal is important, but many start fiddling with stock setup with the simple goal of "i want this to feel better"... so start with the feeling, pay attention to it, make it fit you, and see how that feels afterwards. The you can assess if feeling better helps you shoot better... but give it some time. Changes are as good as a rest, and they need time to prove themselves.

[peashooter]

Do you have a generalised start point for length of pull, or do you use the "invisible rifle" to judge this?

[peashooter]

I've tried using the invisible rifle to set up my position. Using it to set length of pull was an idea but was a bit of a flop for me. But the idea of really trying to feel what a natural position is and then fitting the rifle to me has been enlightening. I have experimented with adding weight to the butt and this really has made a difference to the balance and stabilty of my position. Now I'm in the market for a new rifle I know better what I'm looking for. Thanks everyone for your comments.

[RobinC]

Do you have a generalised start point for length of pull, or do you use the "invisible rifle" to judge this?

I generaly start with it as short as it will go, this is often where its stays, and often we then search for ways to get them even shorter (saw off a wooden stock, or mods on an alloy). Short will bring the ballance and weight back, it also makes you keep the head upright which is also good for ballance, if you are tall then you may need it a little longer, and/or require sight raiser blocks to allow the eye to see straight through the sight.
A common issue with tall people or those with long necks is that they have the stock too long purely so they can have the sight further away from them and give room for them to scrunch down their neck in order to see through the sight. Much better to have the stock shorter, head upright and get the eye in line by utlising sight raising blocks.
Good shooting
Robin

[peashooter]

You describe me exactly! I'm 6ft 2. I use the Ways method for the length of pull, which makes for a long distance aft of the handgrip, and makes the balance all wrong. I'll look at the pictures again - they show me naturally in a much shorter length of pull position with an upright head. However the cheek support is going to need work.......

[RobinC]

I don't like distant coaching, its risky and can miss many factors that one can see at a glance, but I'll just offer this. I'm currently coaching a new shooter 6ft 2 in, thin and gangly, he initialy struggled with the rifle set up text book, head strained, ballance too forward. We now have the rifle as short as it will go, a set of Centra club risers on the max height and the cheek piece up high to get the head in line with the sight, he is more comfortable and ballanced and he is racing away.
I strongly recomend that you get to a club with a good experienced (modern thinking!) coach and you will surely find out more than a month on here.
Good shooting

[peashooter]

Thanks Robin. I'm also thin and gangly!. After your last post i machined up a set of sight risers so that I'm now at the maximum 60mm. I designed an adjustable head rest. My head is now in a vertical position. I have the butt plate at the lowest (220mm) position, and i tried the butt length at the shortest position, but added 20mm as i felt the rifle wasn't seating well enough. I've taken photos and it is remarkable how close the position is to the photos I took with the invisible rifle. Altering the centre of gravity of the rifle was important - the weight was too far forward. No doubt I will make small changes but this does feel quite good. thank you so much for your advice. I would like coaching but as far as i know there is no such thing here.

[RobinC]

Adding 20mm on the length is a lot, I usualy adjust in singles or two mm's, (its a precision sport!) if the rifle is not seating, I also try moving the left hand forward first as that will both move the ballance point back and also give a more angled fore arm (elbow to hand) which will help the other problem of the slightly built of not having any bulk to sit the elbow on, and with the hand forward that will dig and pressure the elbow into the side to form a more stable location. The only problem you may run into is that the rifle may be now pointing too far down by moving the left hand forward, but tall people are usualy pointing above the target, so it may also help your natural point of aim.
BUT, there does come a point where you need to stop adjusting and get used to it, the sooner you get there, the sooner the real work can start.
Have fun, good shooting.
Best regards
Robin