Howdy,
There was a comment by Gerard about sniping in a different thread, and I wanted to follow it up, and so I've copied his comment and am posting it here so this thread can be searched...
Gerard quote:
That last point regarding being held back by our weaknesses due to working with our strengths rings very true for me. I've been getting better and better at 'sniping' while letting go of the need to drill for hold stability. The result? Better-centred 10's when I do hit them, but worse flinches and more 8's and the odd 7 due to panicking when the sniping goes wrong. Trusting my hold and pulling the trigger through that is proving very challenging for me, but it's also obviously worthwhile, and so that's where most of my practice time has gone lately. And the biggest personal challenge with that is in trying not to pay attention to scoring (when shooting live, not during dry fire obviously), just persisting with learning to trust the hold. But I know it will eventually carry me forward to the next improvement in scoring.
endquote
I believe that the sniping that is described here is one that is the high quality shot, a shot that is that clear mind shot that is not propagated by the "shoot now" mind talk, but is that subconscious shot that almost startles the shooter and results in the ten or X. I would like to read more from Gerard and others who are using this method. As for me, I'm about used up on the hold stability method, so Gerard's comment came at a great time for me...
sniping
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I'm going to have to disagree, at least insofar as my experience of these 'sniping' shots as I was trying to describe them. I can shoot 10's in three distinct ways as I see it:
- Panicking, last-moment trigger grabs when my arm is getting tired from holding too long, the pistol is sinking below the 10 ring, and I suddenly jerk it just a bit upwards and pull the trigger at the same moment, then drop the pistol with no follow-through as I'm too tired. This kind is obviously a waste of time and results in scores other than 10 more often than 10.
- Sniping; this is where I am still within the overall window but more often on the back side of the curve, the arm getting a bit tired, focus drifting, and I muster my concentration and strength to bring the gun into alignment and then quickly, gently pull the trigger so as to nail down a 10. This sort results in about 1 x 10 for every 4 times I try it, more often a 9, and then 1 time of the 4 an 8 or worse. Again, obviously not desirable as a fundamental approach, but it's an easy habit to fall into when tired or distracted.
- The 'surprise' shot as you expressed it; I've lately begun to experience more and more of these. Had one morning session last week where about 30 shots in a row went this way, with the sound being unfamiliar, the gun sounding quite alien to my ears, seemingly because the timing was not expected, the trigger 'happening' a bit earlier than I might have planned had I been more focused on the trigger. My focus for this session, and for an increasing percentage of my shots overall the past few weeks, has been on an insistence upon getting the sights up to the mid-line of the black (I've been sighting on the centre of the black for some months after a miserable time trying to make sub-6 work for me), then initiating the trigger as a sort of semi-conscious aside... but as I say, insisting upon focusing on the sights maintaining at the middle of the black.
The result of this last approach is sometimes that my arm wanders and the shot lands even as far out as the white, if the trigger is taking too long or I'm not feeling very steady. But this morning, for example, I did about 20 minutes of dry fire before breakfast. Then I fed my kid and ate breakfast myself, made coffee for myself and my wife (back on the espresso for now, though I quit for some months), read for a bit, did some work in the shop on a violin bow, then about 11 I shot 2 targets. A very tidy group just above the centre resulting in 94, then a lower, slightly messier group scoring 93. Then I walked away, as I shot too much yesterday and also had a long weights workout. When I relax and just bring as much concentration to bear on the centre of the black, it seems the rest almost, sort of, takes care of itself. of course it's more complicated, and I don't really believe that it's quite so 'zen' as some would have us believe with the BS about the empty versus full teacup.
On the aim thing; I've actually re-adjusted my sights a couple of clicks up yesterday as I found holding the sights exactly on the mid-line of the black still too stressful. Holding just a hair below is more comfortable, as I can clearly see the 10. Oh yeah, and I've been focusing on the target for some months too. Just went through several hours with an eye doctor earlier this week and my eyesight is 20/15 - apparently I see better at longer distances than most people. Always knew that, as I can see skiers on the local mountain from 10km away, but it's been made 'official' by my first-ever eye exam at age 50. My closer vision is the problem, with aging stiffening the lenses, so I'm having a couple of lenses made for my Olympic Champion glasses, one for the 10metres of the target, one for the front sight of my Pardini. I'll experiment sometime with the latter, but for now am enjoying looking directly at the target and having the sights be something of a blur. Works for me.
Hope this stuff helps spur some discussion. I know there's a lot said about aiming practices and various sighting areas, and most of it commands that we look at the front sight. I just didn't grow up shooting that way, rather always looked at the spot on the bird or the tin can or whatever where I wanted the pellet to land and it tended to land there, so after struggling with the mainstream way I'm back to more instinctive shooting. Not advocating it for everyone or even for anyone else. But the mental focus stuff, that's interesting, and I feel it's under-discussed. A lot of forum 'discussions' of this subject remind me of my year as a young violinmaker having joined the VMABC, a bunch of old guys who'd retired from various professions and had taken up violin making as a hobby, along with the odd professional. Most discussions where were really re-hashings of the published work of several self-proclaimed experts. I got bored, so I didn't renew my membership and just went on experimenting and studying on my own, and it's worked out to be a very successful career. Wish I could find some luthiers to really talk over ideas with... but a conversation I had last June with a very famous and innovative French luthier showed me it's unlikely. I asked him if there was anyone in Europe he could talk to about his ideas. He said "You mean about new ways of working, new designs?" and I said "Yes." and he said "No. Oh, yes, one guy." (and I said a name and he confirmed it was that guy). Pitiful. So many secret formulas, so many paranoid workers uninterested in open-sourcing their materials. It often feels the same way with shooting. Let's talk! Even if a certain member wants to jump in and insult people, really, best just to carry on, and maybe he'll get the idea and join in with a better attitude.
- Panicking, last-moment trigger grabs when my arm is getting tired from holding too long, the pistol is sinking below the 10 ring, and I suddenly jerk it just a bit upwards and pull the trigger at the same moment, then drop the pistol with no follow-through as I'm too tired. This kind is obviously a waste of time and results in scores other than 10 more often than 10.
- Sniping; this is where I am still within the overall window but more often on the back side of the curve, the arm getting a bit tired, focus drifting, and I muster my concentration and strength to bring the gun into alignment and then quickly, gently pull the trigger so as to nail down a 10. This sort results in about 1 x 10 for every 4 times I try it, more often a 9, and then 1 time of the 4 an 8 or worse. Again, obviously not desirable as a fundamental approach, but it's an easy habit to fall into when tired or distracted.
- The 'surprise' shot as you expressed it; I've lately begun to experience more and more of these. Had one morning session last week where about 30 shots in a row went this way, with the sound being unfamiliar, the gun sounding quite alien to my ears, seemingly because the timing was not expected, the trigger 'happening' a bit earlier than I might have planned had I been more focused on the trigger. My focus for this session, and for an increasing percentage of my shots overall the past few weeks, has been on an insistence upon getting the sights up to the mid-line of the black (I've been sighting on the centre of the black for some months after a miserable time trying to make sub-6 work for me), then initiating the trigger as a sort of semi-conscious aside... but as I say, insisting upon focusing on the sights maintaining at the middle of the black.
The result of this last approach is sometimes that my arm wanders and the shot lands even as far out as the white, if the trigger is taking too long or I'm not feeling very steady. But this morning, for example, I did about 20 minutes of dry fire before breakfast. Then I fed my kid and ate breakfast myself, made coffee for myself and my wife (back on the espresso for now, though I quit for some months), read for a bit, did some work in the shop on a violin bow, then about 11 I shot 2 targets. A very tidy group just above the centre resulting in 94, then a lower, slightly messier group scoring 93. Then I walked away, as I shot too much yesterday and also had a long weights workout. When I relax and just bring as much concentration to bear on the centre of the black, it seems the rest almost, sort of, takes care of itself. of course it's more complicated, and I don't really believe that it's quite so 'zen' as some would have us believe with the BS about the empty versus full teacup.
On the aim thing; I've actually re-adjusted my sights a couple of clicks up yesterday as I found holding the sights exactly on the mid-line of the black still too stressful. Holding just a hair below is more comfortable, as I can clearly see the 10. Oh yeah, and I've been focusing on the target for some months too. Just went through several hours with an eye doctor earlier this week and my eyesight is 20/15 - apparently I see better at longer distances than most people. Always knew that, as I can see skiers on the local mountain from 10km away, but it's been made 'official' by my first-ever eye exam at age 50. My closer vision is the problem, with aging stiffening the lenses, so I'm having a couple of lenses made for my Olympic Champion glasses, one for the 10metres of the target, one for the front sight of my Pardini. I'll experiment sometime with the latter, but for now am enjoying looking directly at the target and having the sights be something of a blur. Works for me.
Hope this stuff helps spur some discussion. I know there's a lot said about aiming practices and various sighting areas, and most of it commands that we look at the front sight. I just didn't grow up shooting that way, rather always looked at the spot on the bird or the tin can or whatever where I wanted the pellet to land and it tended to land there, so after struggling with the mainstream way I'm back to more instinctive shooting. Not advocating it for everyone or even for anyone else. But the mental focus stuff, that's interesting, and I feel it's under-discussed. A lot of forum 'discussions' of this subject remind me of my year as a young violinmaker having joined the VMABC, a bunch of old guys who'd retired from various professions and had taken up violin making as a hobby, along with the odd professional. Most discussions where were really re-hashings of the published work of several self-proclaimed experts. I got bored, so I didn't renew my membership and just went on experimenting and studying on my own, and it's worked out to be a very successful career. Wish I could find some luthiers to really talk over ideas with... but a conversation I had last June with a very famous and innovative French luthier showed me it's unlikely. I asked him if there was anyone in Europe he could talk to about his ideas. He said "You mean about new ways of working, new designs?" and I said "Yes." and he said "No. Oh, yes, one guy." (and I said a name and he confirmed it was that guy). Pitiful. So many secret formulas, so many paranoid workers uninterested in open-sourcing their materials. It often feels the same way with shooting. Let's talk! Even if a certain member wants to jump in and insult people, really, best just to carry on, and maybe he'll get the idea and join in with a better attitude.
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
I believe, and this is just my opinion of course, that triggering is 90 percent of executing a good shot. I have talked to many high masters and they have all told me the same thing: Their slow fire trigger pull is quick and smooth, the moment the sights enter the black and is executed exactly the same as their first shot in sustained fire.
I also believe, based on both my own experience, and what they have told me, that for most people a roll trigger will teach you the kind of triggering you need to execute a good shot. If you learn good triggering and then put it on auto pilot you will be able to apply it to any gun without worrying about when the shot is going to break and where it is going to be. It will be there. Just like you can't simultaneously look at both the front sight and the target, you can't make your mind focus on both the sights and your triggering. Learn how to pick one and move the other function to your subconcious and your muscle memory.
I also believe, based on both my own experience, and what they have told me, that for most people a roll trigger will teach you the kind of triggering you need to execute a good shot. If you learn good triggering and then put it on auto pilot you will be able to apply it to any gun without worrying about when the shot is going to break and where it is going to be. It will be there. Just like you can't simultaneously look at both the front sight and the target, you can't make your mind focus on both the sights and your triggering. Learn how to pick one and move the other function to your subconcious and your muscle memory.
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superstring
- Posts: 155
- Joined: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:16 pm
- Location: Victoria, BC Canada
This may be useful:jbshooter wrote:What is a "roll trigger"? Is it one with no second stage?
http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php ... highlight=
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Isabel1130
- Posts: 1364
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2008 7:19 pm
- Location: Wyoming
You can have a two stage trigger with roll in either or both stages. If you have a two stage trigger and have each stage set at the same weight, it will feel like a long roll. If you want to find out why a roll trigger works and if you are applying continuously building pressure, get yourself a bottle of windex and start spraying windows. assuming you have liquid going to the nozzle, start spraying by pulling the trigger quickly and smoothly all the way to the rear. If the stream of liquid stops before you are at the stop point, you are not applying continuous smooth pressure.jbshooter wrote:What is a "roll trigger"? Is it one with no second stage?
Just a word of warning. It is extremely difficult to perceive continuous movement on a crisp trigger or a very light trigger, (any trigger under 2.5 pounds or so) One great gun for learning to shoot a roll is an LP50 with the heavier bullseye trigger option. The roll is very smooth but long enough so you should feel it moving. If you stop the trigger and then start it again, you will usually end up with a flinch straight up. On the other hand, it is harder to jerk a shot with a roll trigger.
What do you mean by sniping?
I didn't get it...what do you mean by sniping? Are you talking about dynamic aiming?
Warm regards,
Dev
Warm regards,
Dev
What I mean by sniping is those relatively desperate grabs for the 10. Whether it's a desperate lurch towards the 10 or just finding a moment during which the front sight is on, or about to be on the 10, then snatching the trigger suddenly to take that opportunity to fire. At least that sort of shooting is what I've come to understand as sniping, in various articles and forum threads. It's an unreliable sort of shooting, where a smoothly controlled trigger operation during the hold is much more likely, stastically speaking, to go within the shooter's arc of movement. Sniping tends to give wildly diverse results, sometimes working out well, other times very badly.
Sniping
Hi Gerard,
Man I wish i could see the target at ten meters. My eyes just can't so its going to be fuzzy target and slightly less fuzzy sights for me.
I did work hard to try to do a coming down on the sub six and automatically doing the trigger as the ideal sight picture appeared. Froze up on a tourney and then decided to go on the watch sights, begin squeeze at sub six, if trigger feels wrong abort.
Also working on the conventional technique of a better hold. My great score at a tournament was 541 sighhh. Still got miles to go.
Regards,
Dev
Man I wish i could see the target at ten meters. My eyes just can't so its going to be fuzzy target and slightly less fuzzy sights for me.
I did work hard to try to do a coming down on the sub six and automatically doing the trigger as the ideal sight picture appeared. Froze up on a tourney and then decided to go on the watch sights, begin squeeze at sub six, if trigger feels wrong abort.
Also working on the conventional technique of a better hold. My great score at a tournament was 541 sighhh. Still got miles to go.
Regards,
Dev
Re: Sniping
Dev,Dev wrote:Man I wish i could see the target at ten meters. My eyes just can't so its going to be fuzzy target and slightly less fuzzy sights for me.
Regards,
Dev
For goodness sake, get some glasses that allow you to focus clearly on the front sight. You don't need to see the target.
HTH,
FredB
Shooting glasses
Hi Fred,
Will be getting new spectacles this weekend. Might even get shooting glasses soon.
Warm Regards,
Dev
Will be getting new spectacles this weekend. Might even get shooting glasses soon.
Warm Regards,
Dev