I have noticed my performance (group size) improves significantly when holding a pistol (standard, rapid fire, CF) "too tight". The advice seems to be generally for at most "firm but not tight grip", and in some cases, even quite weak grip is advised for light recoil pistols. What are the most common errors that the shooter might be compensating by holding too tight? Of course, you could say that do whatever works best for you, but I recognize that while this might work for me now, wrong habits may inhibit further learning.
I don't mean I'm holding the gun like a .500 S&W or squeezing it until my hand shakes, but I get smaller groups holding tighter than I feel is "normal" or what is my perception from expert advice. Also, the tight grip is not natural to me, I have only recently noticed I could improve my groups by concentrating on holding tighter. Now I'm just thinking that I should rather fix the potential problem than hide it with the hold.
I talked yesterday to a friend of mine, who seems to have a bit of a similar problem. Neither of us gets coaching and we only compete in IPSC, but olympic style shooting is getting more and more of our attention.
Mika
Advice on grip pressure
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John Zurek told me to grip the gun very firmly. He does the same and got the advice from a Russian shooter (didn't tell me his name) who used the firmest grip for the AP. Presumably this is because the pellet stays in the barrel the longest with the AP.
I used a hand exerciser and Keith Sandersen's holding drill to help with keeping grip pressure firm without shaking.
Of course, take this with a grain of salt. I am new to competitive pistol shooting (less than 6 months) and still stink. I'm just passing on the advice I got from someone who most certainly does not stink.
I used a hand exerciser and Keith Sandersen's holding drill to help with keeping grip pressure firm without shaking.
Of course, take this with a grain of salt. I am new to competitive pistol shooting (less than 6 months) and still stink. I'm just passing on the advice I got from someone who most certainly does not stink.
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Isabel1130
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The problem is not so much the shaking, the problem is that the muscles and tendons in your trigger finger are affected by what you are doing with the rest of your hand. If you can grip the gun very tightly and not subconsciously push the sights out of alignment as you pull the trigger, then bully for you. Many people have a problem with this. This is why the AMU recommends a loser grip on the gun. Just enough to keep the gun in your hand and allow you to recover from the recoil. I find that a loser grip gives me about three or four more seconds of a "good hold" which can be very helpful in slow fire. My hand and my grip is not what is holding the pistol on target. It is my shoulder, my arm and my "stiff" wrist Getting on a Noptel or a RIKA and seeing what different types of grip does to your hold, length of hold, and your triggering would probably be the quickest way to discover what works best for you. That answer MAY be totally different when you are shooting a free pistol or an air pistol as opposed to a 45. A heavy trigger such as on a 45 will expose and punish triggering errors caused by poor triggering or an incorrect grip.
The tight grip/lose grip question may also be totally different once you have shot for several years and developed good triggering skills.
The tight grip/lose grip question may also be totally different once you have shot for several years and developed good triggering skills.
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Isabel1130
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"I don't mean I'm holding the gun like a .500 S&W or squeezing it until my hand shakes, but I get smaller groups holding tighter than I feel is "normal" or what is my perception from expert advice. Also, the tight grip is not natural to me, I have only recently noticed I could improve my groups by concentrating on holding tighter. Now I'm just thinking that I should rather fix the potential problem than hide it with the hold."
The biggest problem I see with your analysis is that when you are tightening your grip on the gun, you may be doing "other things" that are causing your smaller groups. These things can include, but are not limited to "pulling the trigger quicker" since you know you have a short window before you start shaking. Another possibility is that when you are tightening your hand, you are also stiffening your whole arm and your wrist. This is a natural tendency and gives you a more stable platform. The trick for most people is to learn to achieve the same effect by creating a solid hold from your shoulder down to your wrist, while NOT tightening your hand on the gun at the same time. If you want to shoot with a tight hand make sure you are mostly holding it with your ring finger and that your trigger finger and opposing thumb are not tightening up on the gun at the same time. I recommend lots of drills when you practice the triggering motion and watch for any movement at all in your other fingers. This can be done on a plastic bottle.
Using my trigger finger ( or thumb) to help "grip the gun" is the kiss of death for me.
The biggest problem I see with your analysis is that when you are tightening your grip on the gun, you may be doing "other things" that are causing your smaller groups. These things can include, but are not limited to "pulling the trigger quicker" since you know you have a short window before you start shaking. Another possibility is that when you are tightening your hand, you are also stiffening your whole arm and your wrist. This is a natural tendency and gives you a more stable platform. The trick for most people is to learn to achieve the same effect by creating a solid hold from your shoulder down to your wrist, while NOT tightening your hand on the gun at the same time. If you want to shoot with a tight hand make sure you are mostly holding it with your ring finger and that your trigger finger and opposing thumb are not tightening up on the gun at the same time. I recommend lots of drills when you practice the triggering motion and watch for any movement at all in your other fingers. This can be done on a plastic bottle.
Using my trigger finger ( or thumb) to help "grip the gun" is the kiss of death for me.
My first coach, Tom McLennan, was fond of saying "the tighter the grip, the tighter the group". I'm not sure how he applied that to air pistol, but he set a US national record in the mid-1970's when air pistol was first taking off in this country.
I generally find a firm grip works best for me, but I wouldn't call it tight. If your trigger control is perfect, it probably doesn't matter. Mine isn't, and I think it helps to stabilize the pistol against minor imperfections that might creep into my shooting. I still work on reducing those errors at the source, but as long as it isn't fatiguing, a tighter grip does produce better groups for me.
I generally find a firm grip works best for me, but I wouldn't call it tight. If your trigger control is perfect, it probably doesn't matter. Mine isn't, and I think it helps to stabilize the pistol against minor imperfections that might creep into my shooting. I still work on reducing those errors at the source, but as long as it isn't fatiguing, a tighter grip does produce better groups for me.
Be careful, too firm a grip is a really good way to get tennis elbow too. Especially if your not conditioned for it. If planning on increasing your grip pressure take it easy and build up to the desired increased pressure.
You want a relatively firm grip, but more important than the actual amount of grip pressure is consistency in grip pressure. Find a grip firmness that you can repeat.
Many people complain about a drop in scores from practice to match, one thing to look at is grip pressure. When you're under stress people tend to increase grip pressure, this could be adding that little bit that just opens those groups up a mm or two but looses you 10, 20 or so points during a match.
You want a relatively firm grip, but more important than the actual amount of grip pressure is consistency in grip pressure. Find a grip firmness that you can repeat.
Many people complain about a drop in scores from practice to match, one thing to look at is grip pressure. When you're under stress people tend to increase grip pressure, this could be adding that little bit that just opens those groups up a mm or two but looses you 10, 20 or so points during a match.
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Isabel1130
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"You want a relatively firm grip, but more important than the actual amount of grip pressure is consistency in grip pressure. Find a grip firmness that you can repeat."
Richard is correct and brings up another point. Grip pressure can change the point of impact. If you cannot grip tightly through the entire match you will find your poi changing. If I am gripping too hard in sustained fire, I still get a good group, but my shots are almost always 2-4 inches to the right of where they should be on the target. I am a left handed shooter. Your results may vary, but they probably won't be consistent until you have spent a lot of time working on strengthening your hand.
Richard is correct and brings up another point. Grip pressure can change the point of impact. If you cannot grip tightly through the entire match you will find your poi changing. If I am gripping too hard in sustained fire, I still get a good group, but my shots are almost always 2-4 inches to the right of where they should be on the target. I am a left handed shooter. Your results may vary, but they probably won't be consistent until you have spent a lot of time working on strengthening your hand.
Now I think you might have a point here. I tried it at home, just cold firing, and I think I do stiffen the whole arm when holding tighter. One more potential error I'm doing when holding tight is that I'm also putting some pressure on the thumb.Isabel1130 wrote: Another possibility is that when you are tightening your hand, you are also stiffening your whole arm and your wrist. This is a natural tendency and gives you a more stable platform. The trick for most people is to learn to achieve the same effect by creating a solid hold from your shoulder down to your wrist, while NOT tightening your hand on the gun at the same time.
I noticed that one positive thing that the tight grip does for me is that it seems to prevent some real bad shots that come from some inadvertent movement of the other fingers when putting pressure on the trigger. Somehow I feel that the fingers are more independent of each other. I guess this is somewhat different between standard and air pistols, as the trigger is heavier.
Mika
I am an advocate of the firm (and by firm, I mean really firm) pressure group. Although not for a novice shooter.
When I hold my AP with fairly firm grip tension my group shrinks to about the size of the 10 ring. If it's more loose, it will be about a 9.5 ring hold.
With a firm grip I have the belief that if I commit to my sights and trigger the result will be in the X-ring.
Isabel correctly says that a looser grip will allow a few extra seconds of holding, however if you're utilising those extra few seconds something else has gone wrong and the shot should have been cancelled.
If you are going to exert a lot of tension on your grip there a few things that you must develop:
* Excellent trigger control. Your trigger finger must be separate from the rest of your hand.
* Ability to hold the same amount of tension in your hand with pressure being applied to the same area of the grip every time.
* Endurance, because it's bloody hard work. The video of Keith Sanderson gives a very good training drill.
The other thing I have found is that I can't shoot long stings of shots. Reason being is that my hand sweats and then moves in the grip. After about 7 or 8 shots I need to take my hand out of the grip, remove the sweat and continue.
Good luck
When I hold my AP with fairly firm grip tension my group shrinks to about the size of the 10 ring. If it's more loose, it will be about a 9.5 ring hold.
With a firm grip I have the belief that if I commit to my sights and trigger the result will be in the X-ring.
Isabel correctly says that a looser grip will allow a few extra seconds of holding, however if you're utilising those extra few seconds something else has gone wrong and the shot should have been cancelled.
If you are going to exert a lot of tension on your grip there a few things that you must develop:
* Excellent trigger control. Your trigger finger must be separate from the rest of your hand.
* Ability to hold the same amount of tension in your hand with pressure being applied to the same area of the grip every time.
* Endurance, because it's bloody hard work. The video of Keith Sanderson gives a very good training drill.
The other thing I have found is that I can't shoot long stings of shots. Reason being is that my hand sweats and then moves in the grip. After about 7 or 8 shots I need to take my hand out of the grip, remove the sweat and continue.
Good luck
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Patrick Haynes
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Grip Pressure & Trigger Finger Isolation
Hi.
Here's a few thoughts.
Releasing a decent shot is predicated upon isolating finger movement to only occur with your trigger finger. That is to say, when you apply trigger pressure, ONLY your trigger finger moves. Unfortunately, that isn't the way that your hand and fingers are built. Fingers are made to grasp objects in unison. Naturally, without conditioning, when you bend your trigger finger, your other fingers bend simultaneously, sympathetically. This unintended movement at shot release changes the point of aim of the gun and the shot goes awry. If you tighten and maintain your grip, a couple of things happen.
First, your pinkie, ring finger and middle finger increase their pressure against the grip. In a sense, it reduces their slack and establishes their point of aim, based at that higher grip pressure. To change the point of aim at shot release, one would need to increase the grip pressure to change the point of aim.
Think of an extreme: With a death grip, perhaps at 100% of your grip strength, to change your point of aim, you'd have to momentarily exceed your max grip strength (105% - unrealistic) to shift your point of aim at the moment of release.
So, with a firm grip, to throw the shot on release due to increases in grip pressure, you have to noticeably increase grip pressure to make the shift noticeable.
Unfortunately, an excessive grip pressure and the fingers working in unison causes another problem: chicken finger (also caused by internal attentional focus). Clenched fingers clench in unison. As your fingers lock around the grip, their untrained ability to move fluidly falls away. It becomes more difficult to smoothly, progressively build pressure on the trigger. So, without training, as grip pressure increases, trigger finger fluidity decreases.
I believe that a firm grip is necessary to control the pistol, especially with sustained fire events. Moderate firmness can reduce minor fluctuations in grip pressure variability at the moment of shot release.
Training can increase trigger finger isolation, as well as maintain fluidity under increased grip pressure.
And, as Richard mentioned, excessive grip pressure will eat your elbow (causing Golfer's Elbow) within a season or two. Firm, but not excessive, grip pressure is the way to go.
And as a final note: know what you are trying to accomplish, as well as the repercussions of your choice, before you take advice off the internet.
Patrick
Here's a few thoughts.
Releasing a decent shot is predicated upon isolating finger movement to only occur with your trigger finger. That is to say, when you apply trigger pressure, ONLY your trigger finger moves. Unfortunately, that isn't the way that your hand and fingers are built. Fingers are made to grasp objects in unison. Naturally, without conditioning, when you bend your trigger finger, your other fingers bend simultaneously, sympathetically. This unintended movement at shot release changes the point of aim of the gun and the shot goes awry. If you tighten and maintain your grip, a couple of things happen.
First, your pinkie, ring finger and middle finger increase their pressure against the grip. In a sense, it reduces their slack and establishes their point of aim, based at that higher grip pressure. To change the point of aim at shot release, one would need to increase the grip pressure to change the point of aim.
Think of an extreme: With a death grip, perhaps at 100% of your grip strength, to change your point of aim, you'd have to momentarily exceed your max grip strength (105% - unrealistic) to shift your point of aim at the moment of release.
So, with a firm grip, to throw the shot on release due to increases in grip pressure, you have to noticeably increase grip pressure to make the shift noticeable.
Unfortunately, an excessive grip pressure and the fingers working in unison causes another problem: chicken finger (also caused by internal attentional focus). Clenched fingers clench in unison. As your fingers lock around the grip, their untrained ability to move fluidly falls away. It becomes more difficult to smoothly, progressively build pressure on the trigger. So, without training, as grip pressure increases, trigger finger fluidity decreases.
I believe that a firm grip is necessary to control the pistol, especially with sustained fire events. Moderate firmness can reduce minor fluctuations in grip pressure variability at the moment of shot release.
Training can increase trigger finger isolation, as well as maintain fluidity under increased grip pressure.
And, as Richard mentioned, excessive grip pressure will eat your elbow (causing Golfer's Elbow) within a season or two. Firm, but not excessive, grip pressure is the way to go.
And as a final note: know what you are trying to accomplish, as well as the repercussions of your choice, before you take advice off the internet.
Patrick
Re: Grip Pressure & Trigger Finger Isolation
I may have missed it in the above but one additional factor that comes into play when you grip hard is that the trigger finger is less able to move independantly. So not only is the ease of movement affected but also on moving the trigger finger, so you will move the other fingers and tendons.Patrick Haynes wrote:<snip>
Unfortunately, an excessive grip pressure and the fingers working in unison causes another problem: chicken finger (also caused by internal attentional focus). Clenched fingers clench in unison. As your fingers lock around the grip, their untrained ability to move fluidly falls away. It becomes more difficult to smoothly, progressively build pressure on the trigger. So, without training, as grip pressure increases, trigger finger fluidity decreases.
I believe that a firm grip is necessary to control the pistol, especially with sustained fire events. Moderate firmness can reduce minor fluctuations in grip pressure variability at the moment of shot release.
Training can increase trigger finger isolation, as well as maintain fluidity under increased grip pressure.
And, as Richard mentioned, excessive grip pressure will eat your elbow (causing Golfer's Elbow) within a season or two. Firm, but not excessive, grip pressure is the way to go.
And as a final note: know what you are trying to accomplish, as well as the repercussions of your choice, before you take advice off the internet.
Patrick
I also wonder if the affects of pressure / stress are more pronounced if you grip hard, but I have no idea if that's true. It just feels to me that it's easier to relax grip slightly when you feel tense, with a moderate or light grip.
Rob.
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Patrick Haynes
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Re: Grip Pressure & Trigger Finger Isolation
Hi Rob.RobStubbs wrote:
I may have missed it in the above but one additional factor that comes into play when you grip hard is that the trigger finger is less able to move independantly. So not only is the ease of movement affected but also on moving the trigger finger, so you will move the other fingers and tendons.
I also wonder if the affects of pressure / stress are more pronounced if you grip hard, but I have no idea if that's true. It just feels to me that it's easier to relax grip slightly when you feel tense, with a moderate or light grip.
Rob.
Yes, in my own inarticulate way, that's what I meant with chicken finger. As grip increases, your trigger finger either freezes or becomes stiff and jerky. Regardless, a smooth, fluid trigger pull becomes more difficult to perform as grip pressure becomes excessive.
Patrick
It is said that the gun should be primarily supported in 3 points - the heel of the hand, the web of the thumb and the middle finger. Finger tips should not be squeezing the gun and the little finger 'pinkie' should be just resting, as should the thumb. The trigger finger should not touch the gun or grip except at the trigger. All of that assumes you can and have modified your grip and can actually support the gun properly and consistently...jackh wrote:Please describe grip pressure in terms of fingers in front vs thumb ham in back.
Rob.
It is said
A lot of things are said, and not all of them are true. I hope beginning shooters don't take the prescription above as the last word on what they must do. There are many ways to grip a handgun, and some work for some, others work for others.RobStubbs wrote: It is said that the gun should be primarily supported in 3 points - the heel of the hand, the web of the thumb and the middle finger. Finger tips should not be squeezing the gun and the little finger 'pinkie' should be just resting, as should the thumb. Rob.
For example, check out the gripping advice given by the Russian coach in his 2 great essays on pistol shooting elsewhere on the Pilkguns site. He advises the strongest grip with the little finger, and least strong with the middle finger. He describes in detail why this works better. Not least is the fact (an anatomical fact) that it helps decouple the triggering action from the gripping action.
I recently asked a hand specialist/surgeon about this, mentioning that often the advice, given by Rob above, is taken as the only truth. He was actually dumbfounded. He said that the hand's greatest gripping strength comes from the combined little and ring fingers, and why would you not use that?
Regarding Jackh's comment about the thumb "ham" above, there are differing views about that as well. Don Nygord told me that the key pressure area at the rear of the grip was the hypothenar muscle, which is the little finger "ham" if you will. The "Zins grip" seems to call for pressure in between the two "hams". In my experience, the pressure area at the back depends a great deal on the shape of the grip back, and of course this can be altered when using an anatomical grip.
So, figure out what works best for you, and take what "is said" with a big grain of salt.
FredB
The most important thing about grip is consistency, so whatever grip one chooses they have to ensure the it is repeatable. I you have the hand strength and endurance in the muscles of the lower arm and hand to squeeze the sap out of the grip well then have at it. From a coaching stand point personally I don't think it's ever a good starting point to start an athlete from an extreme. Some athletes may require the extreme but it's always best to work towards the extreme than start there.
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luftskytter
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grip?
Without making any claims, what if we think outside the box?
Imagine grip pressure from all fingers including trigger finger, increasing during the shot. Doing this slowly without jerking while keeping the sights on target would make the gun go off nice and smooth without thinking of isolating anything. It's not hard to do, and seems to work.
I haven't really tried it extensively with a handgun yet, but used a similar technique with a compound bow and release many years ago. Woerked fine, but with bows and rifles the aiming is taken care of by the other arm.
What do you think?
Anybody see a good reason why it would be wrong?
Imagine grip pressure from all fingers including trigger finger, increasing during the shot. Doing this slowly without jerking while keeping the sights on target would make the gun go off nice and smooth without thinking of isolating anything. It's not hard to do, and seems to work.
I haven't really tried it extensively with a handgun yet, but used a similar technique with a compound bow and release many years ago. Woerked fine, but with bows and rifles the aiming is taken care of by the other arm.
What do you think?
Anybody see a good reason why it would be wrong?
Re: grip?
luftskytter wrote:Without making any claims, what if we think outside the box?
Imagine grip pressure from all fingers including trigger finger, increasing during the shot. Doing this slowly without jerking while keeping the sights on target would make the gun go off nice and smooth without thinking of isolating anything. It's not hard to do, and seems to work.
I haven't really tried it extensively with a handgun yet, but used a similar technique with a compound bow and release many years ago. Woerked fine, but with bows and rifles the aiming is taken care of by the other arm.
What do you think?
Anybody see a good reason why it would be wrong?
I believe this works as long as the squeeze is mentally "aimed" at alignment and stability, and not on just pulling the trigger. The trigger remains on automatic. And starts early.
About the thumb ham and the pinky ham. The pinky ham muscle group has one of the three muscles connected back towards the wrist. I think stability is really aided by this.
grip
Consistency. My method is firmness shy of shaking. "Locking" all muscle groups and intense focus on the trigger finger. I visualize the first stage and the necessary travel to the point of let-off. I can refresh my process by shooting someonelse's pistol which has a different pull. The ability to feel the infinitely small sensations thru the trigger finger is a leaned trait. Also I have set in my mind's eye, the "micrometer" sense of how far the finger travels.