Prone question: flyers to the left - weak buttplate contact?

[nester]

Have problem with my prone position.
Recently I was advised to move my sling up (it was more or less like on this pic: link) and that generally made my position better - I feel more stable, and Scatt confirmed that: usually I've got 99+
But when I tested with live ammo - every 3-5 shots have unexpected flyers to the left (around 8 o'clock). After shot I call it as solid 10, but indeed it is 9.. (see pic 1 below). I was advised that this happens because of weak buttplate contact - then cheek pressure during recoil moves the rifle butt to the right.

Question: how to ensure constant solid contact with the buttplate?
Also, my position seems to get much lower after 10 shots - so I have real trouble constantly stretching my neck in order to reach a sight. (As I suspect - neck should be relaxed, not tensed up and stretched forward?)
So the rifle kind of moving forward - and this weakens buttplate contact and forces to stretch in order to reach it.
Please see 2 animated photos here: they show start and end position
http://www.dianaserver.net/rasnoe/shoot ... imate.html

I also note that my eye relief is 8 cm. This seems way too far..
Can this be because the buttstock is too long for me? (see the pic2 below).
Or what should I try to do - move handstop forward, shorten the sling, or just move right shoulder and elbow back, more rotate body to the left, etc?
I've tried shortening the sling - but it doesn't seems good, since it increase pressure on the left arm and causes fatigue..

pic1:


pic2:

[Tim S]

Hello Nestor,

How tall are you? This is the major factor in butt length. Most Anschutz rifles measure about 11in (27.5cm) from the buttplate to the front of the grip. This is meant to fit an average height man (5ft 8in/1.72m+/-). If you are shoter than this, you may benefit from a shorter butt; it would be easier to load, and the weight of the rifle would come back towards you.

Yes, your position is definitely slipping. Sometimes this happens becuase the tendons/ligaments in your arms relax and stretch. However I think this is caused by your jacket; the left shoulder looks to be a bit big, so it is slipping down. It's difficult as a shooter to see this; i recently had my jacket altered, and was amazed at the difference.

Eye relief - 8cm is long, but not unheard of. Have you tried to move the rearsight back? Yours has been shortened I see, but it looks like you could move it by .5in/1cm.

Tim

[nester]

I am exactly 1.72 - so the butt length should be fine..

Yes, I'll try to check the jacket - but actually it is quite stiff on the shoulders, and I need to pull it really hard in order to demostrate 70mm overlap.

Do you know what is the butt length on the new Anschutz Precise aluminum stock? Or MEC stocks?

[BR1942]

Great shooting forum. Many thanks.
With my first post greetings to the forum members

I own an stock exactly as yours and I´m 1,76 m tall. I´ve change it for another shorter.
In my opinion the stock length is large for you and the sling is too long.

See the distance between triggerguard and sling in the two pics. You will see the gun is going down because you need more strength in the sling.
Try it.

Is your aiming eye in front of the sigths?

I dont like the way you put your face on the stock. How about turning the rifle to the left?. To do it you need turn the buttplate.

[TPJones]

Many shooters find that the rifle trends low as you shoot. You might consider a sling tensioner.We had a 595 shooter attend one of our matches and she adjusted the tensioner throughout the match. For myself, I found that if I do a full set of stretches and warm-ups before shooting it seems to help moderate the rate of drop. My "theory" is that once I pre-stretch I've taken a lot of the potential slop out of my position.

The left & low could be due to several factors:
1) sling may be a bit tight
2) some shooters tend to "hunch" or tense a tiny bit in the shoulders right as they shoot. For a right handed shooter this will cause a left and low.
3) I note that you seem to have fingers on the stock. You might try opening your hand a bit to avoid digits touching the stock. For me, this seems to "just happen" and it's something I really have to pay attention to.

Eye to sight distance is larger than my setup. The caveat here is that I was born with fused neck vertebrae and I shoot from a rather high position, and I shoot from "farther back" on the stock. You can also go on You Tube and see how others are set up - The good-the bad- and the ugly. My general rule is the longer sight radius I have the better off I am.

All of these points are just my observations and experiences. I have no coach outside of the other shooters on the squad. I'm not a crack shot by any means. I'm sure more knowledgeable shooter than I have and will respond.

[TPJones]

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I have an additional thought.

I was shooting 50 meter 4 bull (+ sighter) targets over the weekend. I shoot the bulls in the shape of a "U" so I only have to change my L-R NPA once, as opposed to a reverse "C" which means I have to change NPA twice. I've found that my left toe position and breathing are enough to control NPA for up/down.

Any way, I was thinking about your query during a break and realized that you might be shooting a British '89 target. I note your provided targets were numbered 1, 2, 3, and the third shot was left. Is it possible that you're not establishing a new NPA for each bull? If one doesn't do this, it's pretty well established that succeeding shots will go left (further and further) if a new NPA isn't established.

Somewhere I have a couple articles that go into fairly great detail about how to shoot a British '89 target, and it seems I recall that shooting "straight across", L to R, has it's pitfalls. Perhaps a British shooter could chime in on this? I haven't shot that target in years, but it seems there was a way to do it with relatively few L-R adjustments in position.

As an aside, it appears the club I shoot with will be shooting postal matches this year against a British club - I believe we've settled on the 6 bull mini Palma target so neither squad would have the advantage of using their "home" target. My targets are on their way to me, so I'll have an entirely new set of problems to overcome. :-)

[Tim S]

It's not any NSRA (British) '89 pattern target that I've seen. Our 20 and 25 yard diagrams are no numbered, and the scoring rings don't extend past the black aming mark. The targets shown have been inwards gauged; NSRA 15/20/25 yard targets are all outwards gauged. The targets are too small to be 50m.

I'm thinking Canada?

[timinder]

You mean Canada like in his sig? :)

For what it's worth, I would agree with most of the preceding advice: Stretching before firing, moving the sights back and using the sling tensioner to account for any sagging you get.
Another way around this if you don't have a tensioner is to start off at the top of the target and let your natural drop in position work with you as you move down to the lower aiming marks.

[woody_rod]

Given the consistency of the error, I would immediately question the tune of the rifle.

Shoot a 40 or 50 round group, I propose you will see a consistent oblong group from center to 7-8 oclock.

I believe too many people think their rifles shoot better than they actually do.

[Tim S]

Woody,

from the size of the target, I'd say this was 20-25 yards. I don't think the tune of the rifle will be the culprit at this distance. Unless the rifle or ammunition are faulty, the dispersion of rifle/ammunition would not account for the 3rd shot pictured.

It's tempting to to blame the rifle givent he disparity in scores between SCATT and live firing, but I think the fault is more likely to lie with the position, or the fit of the jacket, or sling tension.

I've seen 30-40 year old rifles, some that have not been cleaned for several years shoot very high scores at short range. The same rifles probably won't do the same at 50m or 100 yards.

[Telecomtodd]

Well, I read a lot of good thoughts but wondering why some of the basics aren't being discussed. By the way, you and I are the exact same height.

Your pictures are very useful. Some ideas:

1. Your sling is quite low on your upper arm. It appears that you can adjust it upwards; it looks like you could easily go 2 to 5 cm higher on your arm. Using a method to cinch it down to keep it at that point is helpful.

2. Once that is done, I would move your arm closer to a 45 degree angle as your hold is quite low. This will directly affect your neck muscles that you mention in one of your posts.

3. Your handstop looks a bit thick/long and that could be messing with your geometery too.

4. Your pictures don't show what kind of buttplate you are using, but from the stock it looks like you are using a 1813 or older 1913 setup. I have a 1913 and it relies on the buttplate to provide added "pull length". In your case I think you have a set up with too long of a pull. As a result your left hand is nearly under the action, even in a low hold. I would not worry about how well the buttplate is holding you, but instead how you are fitting to the stock.

5. Once your skeletal position is in place, I wonder how it will affect your sight alignment. Your head should be straighter on the rear sight and your neck will feel better.

6. The targets you show in your first post go left to right. I wonder how your targets would look top to bottom. If your NPA is right on with the left target and the shots appear to "wander" to the left, it's pretty evident to me that you are staying in your original NPA and this is what you will end up with. By shooting top down and then slightly shifting your NPA to the middle targets (and so forth), you may find that your shots no longer shift to the left.

I'm adding a picture of myself in position (using a scope, don't have one in irons) so you can see how my buttplate is positioned, my left arm is angled, and how far further forward my hand is from under the action. A centimeter here and there can make a world of difference.

[timinder]

Todd, looking at your photo - it seems that your jacket is a bit too big for you: There's loads of material bunched op around the back of your neck and shoulder, which won't help with your head position (pushing it down) or your buttplate location. It also looks fairly loose across the shoulders which will allow your sling to move down your arm during a shoot.
Your right wrist looks quite kinked as well - have you tried shifting your right elbow out a little to straighten your wrist? (This will lower your position and might help the jacket to sit a little more snugly)

Sorry for the slight hijack!

[Telecomtodd]

Oh, no worries, we can all use assistance.

Don't worry too much about my jacket - it's a size 50. Yes, 50, and I am 5 foot 9 or 1.76 meters tall. Pants are a size 40. I resemble a fire plug! My father is tall but I managed to get my mom's shorter legs. My head movement is actually quite adequate; I can move forward or backward easily. I've been "inspected" by a NCAA Division 1 coach friend who agreed it was the best adaptation for my build.

The sling does not move. It is in a buckled-down holder. With my wide shoulders, the coat doesn't move, either. And for those snickering, yes, I surely could lose some weight in my belly, but I still have the upper body physique from years at the gym; I used to bench-press 400 pounds (about 180 kilos) 20X just to get my heart rate up for the rest of my workout routine. I am not an endurance athlete, and I'm really lucky my since-discovered heart problem didn't kill me back then. I have good stories and experienced direction for youth shooters!

Unless I have a jacket tailored at a significantly higher cost, this is the best I can do, and honestly it works well for me.

So back to our regularly scheduled help-out session for Mr. Nester...

[Roadthing]

Left or right for me when I started was almost always NPA . You torque rifle to the bull , break the shot, have a crappy recoil and just like that I would have a 9. The more I learn the more I find myself making my NPA as close to perfect as I can.

Doug

[NikNak]

Get yourself a copy of "ways of the rifle." It's a great texbook that answers many of your questions. Read it, read it again .... and again. Well worth the time. It saved my kneeling.

[Peter_Scant]

Nester, what order are you shooting the bulls? With shooting one shot per bull you have to be really observant to pick whether it was an error like a shoulder twitch (pushes butt forward and muzzle down to the left for a right handed shooter) or poor natural point of aim.

In training I shoot two to three shoots per bull so that I can see patterns.

For the others the target in the original post is a Canadian 25m target. It has 3 rows of 4 bulls and the middle 2 bulls of the middle row are the sighters. To shoot the target in compertition you have to move your natural point of aim multiple times.

[nester]

Many shooters find that the rifle trends low as you shoot. You might consider a sling tensioner.We had a 595 shooter attend one of our matches and she adjusted the tensioner throughout the match. For myself, I found that if I do a full set of stretches and warm-ups before shooting it seems to help moderate the rate of drop. My "theory" is that once I pre-stretch I've taken a lot of the potential slop out of my position.

Hi TPJones,
Thank you for your comments.
Yes, I've tried stretching before the match, and also pay more attention during the session to place right elbow in the same spot (and do not shift it forward), and seems now I have much more comfortable position - and do not have to stretch my neck that far.
I haven't tried to shorten the sling (I have MEC sling with fine-une adjustment), but will try it as well, and also will make more pictures and compare..

About the flyers - here is our target:
http://www.dianaserver.net/rasnoe/shooting/100.jpg

Indeed - those flyers were (as I think) only because broken NPA.
I shoot by the numbers 1 to 10 and simply didn't spent needed time to readjust..
Next session I've paid special attention to the NPA for each shot - and no more such well-defined flyers!

[nester]

Well, I read a lot of good thoughts but wondering why some of the basics aren't being discussed. By the way, you and I are the exact same height.

Your pictures are very useful. Some ideas:..

Thanks Telecomtodd,
Yes, some ideas to try!

I can't make the sling any higher (may be 1 cm at max). It is not very clear at the picture, but it almost under my armpit, so actually I am worring if it is too high..

About the left arm - it should be much further forward, not under the action, correct? Yes, I think this is because the stock is too long for my position (I can try to rotate the body more). I am thinking to get a new rifle (in 1918 aluminum stock. BTW, are there any comments on it), so it will have the shorter stock to allow more options.

And about the multibull target - I think you are exactly right - this is because bad NPA.
Once I've tried to pay special attention to it - no more flyers.

[WesternGrizzly]

I check my NPA for every shot. Even if I am shooting on electronic targets. Its part of my mental program.
Matt

[nester]

Get yourself a copy of "ways of the rifle." It's a great texbook that answers many of your questions. Read it, read it again .... and again. Well worth the time. It saved my kneeling.

Yes, I've got it, but have read only one time so far.
It doesn't provide the answer on particular question (e.g. on this question about flyers), but it's more like "showing the way" in general (philosophical) conception.
Completely agree - need to read it once a month again and again