Russ,
like the OP asked, what kind of specific exercices do you suggest? And what are the "3 to 4 issues" you suggested he may have?
Very interested to hear back from a top shooter.
Making the trigger squeeze subconscious
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Is this not helpful enough?
"In my personal experience and over 17 years of competitive ISSF performance, I was not able to notify the occurrence of “subconscious trigger squeeze” below the level of 570AP or over 550 FP.
If someone is talking about “subconscious trigger squeeze” and not able to execute 565 in AP at a constant basis, this is total BULL. (Sorry for my French).
Before you will start digging in this topic, please become familiar with fundamentals. You probably have 3 to 4 issues besides “subconscious trigger squeeze”.
After achieving the basic level of 565-570 AP, you can engage in the mental part of the game. Otherwise, it is a great waste of your time and other recourses.
"specific motor task into memory through repetition"
"become automatic and improve with practice"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory "
Is this not helpful enough? This was my very first post on this topic.
If someone is talking about “subconscious trigger squeeze” and not able to execute 565 in AP at a constant basis, this is total BULL. (Sorry for my French).
Before you will start digging in this topic, please become familiar with fundamentals. You probably have 3 to 4 issues besides “subconscious trigger squeeze”.
After achieving the basic level of 565-570 AP, you can engage in the mental part of the game. Otherwise, it is a great waste of your time and other recourses.
"specific motor task into memory through repetition"
"become automatic and improve with practice"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory "
Is this not helpful enough? This was my very first post on this topic.
Omitting value of other fundamentals will stop you from...
I like this question better than "subconcious trigger squeeze" development. First of all, what is the idea behind specific exercises for trigger squeeze? What is the point? What would you like to develop during those exercises? Are there any exercises for this matter? You most likely will not deliver the value for this subject. I will explain why.v76 wrote:Russ,
like the OP asked, what kind of specific exercices do you suggest? And what are the "3 to 4 issues" you suggested he may have?
Very interested to hear back from a top shooter.
Two of the most important parts in fundamentals are the execution of trigger squeeze and sight alignment. Can we hold two thoughts during one moment in our head? Probably not. One part of those two should take place. Trigger squeeze is the final stage in our development. If other parts of the fundamentals are not executed in the correct order, I am 99% sure you will never see trigger squeeze development on the subconcious level.
What do I do in my class exactly? If someone is interested to raise their performance to a higher level, I review all the fundamentals by adjusting them to the peak of performance. Afterwards, trigger squeeze becomes a logical and effortless culmination at a subconcious level (without any special training). From my point of view, special exercises on this subject will not bring any value to someone who is asking for help.
Omitting value of other fundamentals will stop you from development of automatic ( subcoucious ) trigger squeeze development.
P.S.
Is your initial development took place somewhere without qualified help? (I'm not using the words “my help”). There are many knowledgeable people who can handle this issue in the correct order. If you have competitive aspirations, go and ask for help. Otherwise, ”If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got, and you'll always feel what you always felt.”
Last edited by Russ on Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:09 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Is this not helpful enough?
This sort of negativity is not very useful, at least in the opinion of many shooters here, and has in the past as in this thread lead to considerable distraction from the topic in threads where you participate and contribute such negativity. Perhaps from your perspective Russ you do not see this as being hostile, but believe me, the tone is not a positive one to native English speakers. It is outright hostility you seem to be expressing, intended or not. Condescending and hostile, not conducive to a healthy learning process.Russ wrote:After achieving the basic level of 565-570 AP, you can engage in the mental part of the game. Otherwise, it is a great waste of your time and other recourses.
To paraphrase the Wikipedia article using a well known and ancient truism; question: 'How can I get to Carnegie Hall?'Russ wrote: "specific motor task into memory through repetition"
"become automatic and improve with practice"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_memory "
Is this not helpful enough? This was my very first post on this topic.
answer: 'Practice.'
That's what the article says, essentially, while spelling out the specific mechanisms involved. The OP was asking for specific help beyond this, to address the immediate problem of 'chicken finger' which he's experiencing.
I'm no expert, and certainly do experience this phenomenon when I forget to automate the process - but as I've only been shooting for slightly more than a year this is perhaps to be expected. Lately I've been able to make about 1/2 of my shots more or less automatic, getting them off quickly and without undue strain in the basics including the depression of the trigger, and the result shows as these shots grouping tightly on the high 9's and 10's. When this fails, when I allow whatever psychological interference/bad habits to creep back in, the result tends to be an 8 or worse.
So for my inexpert contribution I'd suggest to the original poster that he attempt a long series of shots without focus on the score at all, though still using a target. Perhaps try the simple mechanism I've been using; shooting using the wrong glasses such that the front sight is easily focused upon, but the target becomes extremely blurred. I've found that this has resulted in several targets of nothing but 9's and 10's even though I've let each shot go with less than 3 seconds of hold and with only very minimal attention to the alignment of the sights. Pulling the trigger becomes rather easy when there isn't any hope of finding the 10 visually.
In trying to apply this in more score-focused training, I have been playing with the iris size on my shooting glasses and trying to find a suitable compromise, where the target is slightly more in focus but not so crisp that I become obsessive about perfecting alignment. The degree to which this works varies with time of day or mood, so I am trying to become comfortable with whatever adjustments are necessary such that chicken finger does not return. The results so far are interesting and encouraging.
We have lot of years ahead. ;)
I hope the second part is more helpful. Just try to be patient. We have lot of years ahead for a positive learning process. ;)
More details are here:
"The Value of the Perfect Single Shot Fundamentals Development Class"
http://midwestshootingacademy.com/article7.shtml
I posted it in 2005.
Some got the point while some did not. ;)
P.S.
This answer probably raised more questions. :(
More details are here:
"The Value of the Perfect Single Shot Fundamentals Development Class"
http://midwestshootingacademy.com/article7.shtml
I posted it in 2005.
Some got the point while some did not. ;)
P.S.
This answer probably raised more questions. :(
Last edited by Russ on Tue Feb 21, 2012 7:15 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Making the trigger squeeze subconscious
Hi,vHoff wrote:do people have any tips/practice exercises to make the trigger squeeze subconscious and smooth? Should I focus on the start of the trigger squeeze and then just ignore it?
I am not a world champion, but...
I would suggest you to experiment.
For example:
first experimental training session: take control consciously... pull so smooth and constant as you can (your attention on the index finger). Without any pause. Smooth. Through. No matter if you have 4-5-6-7-8 on the target... it is a training. You are going to learn something new.
second training session: imagine how your finger pulls the trigger without your control... Look at you finger... imagine... - your index finger tends to bend more and more. Execute. This time control your hold. The finger is programmed. Imagine -> Execute -> Imagine -> Execute...
Some of my 560-570 AP friends used to watch TV with air pistol... sitting on the sofa and pulling the trigger for a while (but I never trained such way).
-
orionshooter
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Re: Is this not helpful enough?
Gerard I agreed with your post except for the statement above. Corrective lenses which allow clear focus of the front sight and a blurred bull are not wrong at all. In fact, this is precisely what most shooters want. Like many others, I am convinced the bull is nothing more than a completely unnecessary distraction as proven by shooting at the blank side of the target.Gerard wrote:
Perhaps try the simple mechanism I've been using; shooting using the wrong glasses such that the front sight is easily focused upon, but the target becomes extremely blurred.
I also believe the use of an iris to facilitate clear vision of both the bull and the front sight is counterproductive. Based on your post, your scores seem to have improved when you have tried what you describe as wrong.
Apologies again for straying from the poster's intiial question about trigger control.
Sorry for my abbreviated explanation orionshooter. I tend to run on rather a lot into lengthy explanations of things (need to find more succinct ways of expressing myself, some day) and one side effect is that self-consciousness about this issue lead to abbreviating the wrong things at times.
What I ought to have said is something like this: I use a lens on my shooting glasses which makes focus on the front sight automatic, without effort in the eye. This same lens leaves the target black fairly blurred, so long as I don't make an effort to focus upon it. But when I've been battling with 'chicken-finger' lately I have at times resorted to using reading glasses with a rather shorter range focus, such that things about 15" in front of me are sharp without effort, but the front sight which is about 39" from my eye becomes blurred unless I make a significant effort to bring it into focus. This lens makes the target black VERY blurry, almost to the point of disappearing. The result is a dramatic reduction in the tension around hitting the 10, as I couldn't find the 10 to save my life with these reading glasses on at 10 metres, nor even at 7 metres which is my smaller home practice range.
So I hope it is clear from this long-winded explanation that my intention is to take focus away from the precise timing of the triggering event, putting it mainly on sight alignment and front sight focus secondarily as achieving the latter is a bit more work than my eye wants to do. Perhaps not an ideal training regimen but something I've been using this past month now and then which has helped improve my ease with the trigger. If I go from that, to stopping down my iris to minimum such that both front sight and target black are crisply in (apparent) focus, for a little while at least I have no trouble letting the trigger continue to 'happen' while I focus on alignment. Of course my goal in this regard is to build enough hours of experience in stress-free triggering that it becomes irrelevant, and I can abandon such a trick with the focal length of my glasses. I'd consider competing with the reading glasses... but unfortunately seem to spray the shots all around the 9 ring with relatively few 10's in this way. A more correct lens permits higher 10 counts, while I try to reduce the number of 8's.
What I ought to have said is something like this: I use a lens on my shooting glasses which makes focus on the front sight automatic, without effort in the eye. This same lens leaves the target black fairly blurred, so long as I don't make an effort to focus upon it. But when I've been battling with 'chicken-finger' lately I have at times resorted to using reading glasses with a rather shorter range focus, such that things about 15" in front of me are sharp without effort, but the front sight which is about 39" from my eye becomes blurred unless I make a significant effort to bring it into focus. This lens makes the target black VERY blurry, almost to the point of disappearing. The result is a dramatic reduction in the tension around hitting the 10, as I couldn't find the 10 to save my life with these reading glasses on at 10 metres, nor even at 7 metres which is my smaller home practice range.
So I hope it is clear from this long-winded explanation that my intention is to take focus away from the precise timing of the triggering event, putting it mainly on sight alignment and front sight focus secondarily as achieving the latter is a bit more work than my eye wants to do. Perhaps not an ideal training regimen but something I've been using this past month now and then which has helped improve my ease with the trigger. If I go from that, to stopping down my iris to minimum such that both front sight and target black are crisply in (apparent) focus, for a little while at least I have no trouble letting the trigger continue to 'happen' while I focus on alignment. Of course my goal in this regard is to build enough hours of experience in stress-free triggering that it becomes irrelevant, and I can abandon such a trick with the focal length of my glasses. I'd consider competing with the reading glasses... but unfortunately seem to spray the shots all around the 9 ring with relatively few 10's in this way. A more correct lens permits higher 10 counts, while I try to reduce the number of 8's.
Sorry to interrupt the flame war going on above. But I'd actually like to ask a question of OP.
Do you need your trigger press to be subconscious?
I believe that I do not shoot as well when I am totally unaware or my trigger press. Rather, when I am able to feel the trigger press (without thinking about it) I find I have better trigger control.
But if you want to have an unconscious trigger press the only way I know to achieve this is by doing it correctly so many times that it happens without prompting from you. Yes it must be done correctly in practice, because if you make a mistake you will think about it, thus it's no longer subconscious.
Good luck.
Do you need your trigger press to be subconscious?
I believe that I do not shoot as well when I am totally unaware or my trigger press. Rather, when I am able to feel the trigger press (without thinking about it) I find I have better trigger control.
But if you want to have an unconscious trigger press the only way I know to achieve this is by doing it correctly so many times that it happens without prompting from you. Yes it must be done correctly in practice, because if you make a mistake you will think about it, thus it's no longer subconscious.
Good luck.
Why do shooters complicate the shot production so much ?
Its simple
"Squeeze the Foresight back though the Rearsight, until the Shot goes BANG ".
As a exercise, add some extra second stage weight and some second stage rolloff to your trigger. This will take away the "break like glass" trigger feel and add some uncertain feel to the break.
This forces you to have a continuous trigger pull while watching your sights.
Take away the target and shoot on a blank card, now you are learning a trigger squeeze whilst focusing on the sights.....guess what you will learn the feel of subconsious shots and get rid of the "Gotcha" flinching shots.
Its simple
"Squeeze the Foresight back though the Rearsight, until the Shot goes BANG ".
As a exercise, add some extra second stage weight and some second stage rolloff to your trigger. This will take away the "break like glass" trigger feel and add some uncertain feel to the break.
This forces you to have a continuous trigger pull while watching your sights.
Take away the target and shoot on a blank card, now you are learning a trigger squeeze whilst focusing on the sights.....guess what you will learn the feel of subconsious shots and get rid of the "Gotcha" flinching shots.
Re: Omitting value of other fundamentals will stop you from.
Thanks for the reply, Russ! So basically, we should mainly concentrate on sight alignment unless we are at a higher level of shooting and have solid 'other' fundamentals?Russ wrote: Two of the most important parts in fundamentals are the execution of trigger squeeze and sight alignment. Can we hold two thoughts during one moment in our head? Probably not. One part of those two should take place. Trigger squeeze is the final stage in our development. If other parts of the fundamentals are not executed in the correct order, I am 99% sure you will never see trigger squeeze development on the subconcious level.
P.S.
Is your initial development took place somewhere without qualified help? (I'm not using the words “my help”).
P.S. I used a lot of the well known shooting litterature. No coach, but seeing as you freely reply to the questions asked, I'll save a bit of money for alcoholic delicacies - and that post-valentine's day half price chocolate. ; )
To v76.
One more time, automatic (subconcious) trigger squeeze may occur in the desired area (10 ring) if all fundamentals are applied correctly, not just sight alignment. If the individual will concentrate on automatic (subconcious) trigger squeeze release, where there is no strong foundation, knowledge and skills in other areas (fundamentals); he will receive a similar result (score wise). We will notice only one difference in his "performance." He will start talking sophisticated and use words such as "subconcious" more often. There will be no noticeable impact in his actual score performance.
Books are good for coaches. If you have any aspirations to achieve a certain level of performance, you have to look for guided education.
P.S. I recently went to the shooting range and spoke with three individuals on the shooting range who seemed to be practicing hard. I asked them to name the fundamentals. They were able to name only four. My question is, what are they exactly doing on the shooting range when they don't even know what should be accomplished in the structure of performance? I am not even talking about a deep understanding about this subject. Think about that.
One more time, automatic (subconcious) trigger squeeze may occur in the desired area (10 ring) if all fundamentals are applied correctly, not just sight alignment. If the individual will concentrate on automatic (subconcious) trigger squeeze release, where there is no strong foundation, knowledge and skills in other areas (fundamentals); he will receive a similar result (score wise). We will notice only one difference in his "performance." He will start talking sophisticated and use words such as "subconcious" more often. There will be no noticeable impact in his actual score performance.
Books are good for coaches. If you have any aspirations to achieve a certain level of performance, you have to look for guided education.
P.S. I recently went to the shooting range and spoke with three individuals on the shooting range who seemed to be practicing hard. I asked them to name the fundamentals. They were able to name only four. My question is, what are they exactly doing on the shooting range when they don't even know what should be accomplished in the structure of performance? I am not even talking about a deep understanding about this subject. Think about that.
Thanks for 'clarifying' Russ.
To the OP, here's a mass of information I accumulated and stored in a single place: http://tinyurl.com/AirPistolTraining. I specifically suggest looking at the 3 "Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting" articles by Mr. Piddubnyy and here: http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg.shtml, The Subconscious Shot article by Warren Potter. (Also on my archive)
Books are good for everybody. If that's your idea of guidance, I think you just discredited yourself. Great read for you, since you're a coach and all:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... 0Part2.pdf
Great that the ISSF is now trying to share even more info through its web site and via e-Learning, I salute the initiative.
To the OP, here's a mass of information I accumulated and stored in a single place: http://tinyurl.com/AirPistolTraining. I specifically suggest looking at the 3 "Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting" articles by Mr. Piddubnyy and here: http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg.shtml, The Subconscious Shot article by Warren Potter. (Also on my archive)
Russ wrote:Books are good for coaches. If you have any aspirations to achieve a certain level of performance, you have to look for guided education.
Books are good for everybody. If that's your idea of guidance, I think you just discredited yourself. Great read for you, since you're a coach and all:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... 0Part2.pdf
Great that the ISSF is now trying to share even more info through its web site and via e-Learning, I salute the initiative.
No problem. I’m not very good with general advice and encouraging someone who has very low goals.
I like this sport because of the high impact on psychology. Someone likes it because they are fascinated with engineering concepts.
I know for sure one part must be delegated to professionals with precautions.
Reading is good. When someone is trying to implement good ideas many questions will arise. We do not have the option to ask the author of this book about specific details, which can be vital to the reader’s case.
These are points where the road toward success may diverge drastically. This is why it is important to have long term relationships with trusted sources of knowledge and experience in different aspects of performance (not only in the technical part). My best wishes.
P.S.
To:v76
Are you sure the word “discredited” is correct? Is your real intention to find something controversial in my writing? I can give you a hint, “Russ’s English grammar”, try to use this topic. It will make you victorious! ;)
Dear v76 , if you initial intention is not positive, it will be hard for you to digest anything from my writing and make it useful in the future.
I like this sport because of the high impact on psychology. Someone likes it because they are fascinated with engineering concepts.
I know for sure one part must be delegated to professionals with precautions.
Reading is good. When someone is trying to implement good ideas many questions will arise. We do not have the option to ask the author of this book about specific details, which can be vital to the reader’s case.
These are points where the road toward success may diverge drastically. This is why it is important to have long term relationships with trusted sources of knowledge and experience in different aspects of performance (not only in the technical part). My best wishes.
P.S.
To:v76
Are you sure the word “discredited” is correct? Is your real intention to find something controversial in my writing? I can give you a hint, “Russ’s English grammar”, try to use this topic. It will make you victorious! ;)
Dear v76 , if you initial intention is not positive, it will be hard for you to digest anything from my writing and make it useful in the future.
Last edited by Russ on Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To v76
I have very little courage to make my postings more important than others. I see a lot of intelligent and wise people around and will be happy to shake their hands. I have a little spare time to help, this is why I have to use discretion and make sure that my help will benefit my student with real score value not only with emotional elevation.
I have very little courage to make my postings more important than others. I see a lot of intelligent and wise people around and will be happy to shake their hands. I have a little spare time to help, this is why I have to use discretion and make sure that my help will benefit my student with real score value not only with emotional elevation.
To the contrary, you're very good with general advice but not really bringing up any specific tips about anything, hence my questions (past and present).Russ wrote:Definitely, I’m not very good with general advises and encouraging someone who has very low goals.
Your general wisdom has already been 'digested': invest in the fundamentals until 570, then you can show us how to break a cinder block bare handed without pain.
Discredited is the right word. There's nothing more or less controversial in your writings than there was 570 posts ago.I see more of the same.
OP asked about an issue with one of the fundamentals: trigger control. Your answer: work on the fundamentals.
Anyway, back to the topic...!
To v76
#1"To the OP, here's a mass of information I accumulated and stored in a single place: http://tinyurl.com/AirPistolTraining. I specifically suggest looking at the 3 'Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting' articles by Mr. Piddubnyy and here: http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg.shtml, The Subconscious Shot article by Warren Potter. (Also on my archive) "
#2"Books are good for everybody. If that's your idea of guidance, I think you just discredited yourself. Great read for you, since you're a coach and all:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... 0Part2.pdf"
It's great that the ISSF is trying to share even more info through its website and via e-Learning. I salute the initiative."
Why is it not enough for you? This is the best time to go practice my friend.
Tips are not a very useful thing if the structure is undeveloped!
I am 100% sure about my statement of how professional initial training must take place if you see yourself performing above 565 AP.
For some reason if someone has different beliefs or disagreements, please behave respectfully in a public place. It will not make me angry; it will only raise my curiosity level of how far and how long different beliefs will take someone in their score performance. I support my class after the initial two day training until the required score performance will take place. What does it mean?
No tips, not even clinics will provide efficiency in the desired score performance area without qualified support after initial training. The place where we are right now, a plubic forum, is only good to find out where you are supposed to go for competition or to search for qualified help. I hope this is helpful. ;)
#1"To the OP, here's a mass of information I accumulated and stored in a single place: http://tinyurl.com/AirPistolTraining. I specifically suggest looking at the 3 'Vital Problems of Pistol Shooting' articles by Mr. Piddubnyy and here: http://www.pilkguns.com/hhg.shtml, The Subconscious Shot article by Warren Potter. (Also on my archive) "
#2"Books are good for everybody. If that's your idea of guidance, I think you just discredited yourself. Great read for you, since you're a coach and all:
http://www.issf-sports.org/getfile.aspx ... 0Part2.pdf"
It's great that the ISSF is trying to share even more info through its website and via e-Learning. I salute the initiative."
Why is it not enough for you? This is the best time to go practice my friend.
Tips are not a very useful thing if the structure is undeveloped!
I am 100% sure about my statement of how professional initial training must take place if you see yourself performing above 565 AP.
For some reason if someone has different beliefs or disagreements, please behave respectfully in a public place. It will not make me angry; it will only raise my curiosity level of how far and how long different beliefs will take someone in their score performance. I support my class after the initial two day training until the required score performance will take place. What does it mean?
No tips, not even clinics will provide efficiency in the desired score performance area without qualified support after initial training. The place where we are right now, a plubic forum, is only good to find out where you are supposed to go for competition or to search for qualified help. I hope this is helpful. ;)