hello, i am consistently shooting in the high 80's and low 90's for smallbore prone shooting. This isnt terrible but i would like to improve my scores.
are there any small tips that you might have to improve my scores or do i just need more practice.
any tips to improve my scores
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
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bugman1955
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:10 pm
It might help if you gave a little more information. What distance? 25 yards, 50m, 100 yards? What targets, ISSF, NSRA, US-NRA? What rifle/ammunition? How long have you been shooting? More practise is good, but if you are making fundamental errors, then practise will not correct them, until you know what you are doing wrong, and know what to do instead. There are many possible answers. Without knowing what is the problem some basic suggestions/thoughts are:
Is your position consistently steady? (i.e how much does the rifle wobble when you aim).
Are you aiming correctly?
Does your rifle fit you? For example, if you struggle because the butt is too long (most rifles are too long for people under 5ft 6in) this won't help. Equally if the cheekpiece is too low, or too wide, this affects your ability to aim consistently.
Does your jacket fit you? If it's too big across the shoulders, the weight of the rifle will drag the sling down, making the rifle loose in the shoulder.
What foresight do you use? Some shooters insist on using a very small aperture (i.e. 3.2mm or smaller with a standard Anschutz barrel). This gives a very small gap between target and foresight. If your hold and aim are not rock steady, this very small gap can mask aiming errors.
When did you last have an eye test? Most shooters over 30 need some form of correction for their vision.
Is your rifle accurate enough? Barrels do wear out over time. A rifle that is more than 40 years old could have fired enough rounds that it shoots larger or erratic groups. If it is newish and in good condition, what ammunition are you using? Barrels can be fussy, and will shoot large or erratic groups with brand X, or even some production lots. Try shooting several different brands/batches from a rest to see if this produces better groups.
When did you last clean the rifle? Clean barrels generally shoot better. Firing residue also clogs the bolt and breech, which makes ignition erratic.
Tim
Is your position consistently steady? (i.e how much does the rifle wobble when you aim).
Are you aiming correctly?
Does your rifle fit you? For example, if you struggle because the butt is too long (most rifles are too long for people under 5ft 6in) this won't help. Equally if the cheekpiece is too low, or too wide, this affects your ability to aim consistently.
Does your jacket fit you? If it's too big across the shoulders, the weight of the rifle will drag the sling down, making the rifle loose in the shoulder.
What foresight do you use? Some shooters insist on using a very small aperture (i.e. 3.2mm or smaller with a standard Anschutz barrel). This gives a very small gap between target and foresight. If your hold and aim are not rock steady, this very small gap can mask aiming errors.
When did you last have an eye test? Most shooters over 30 need some form of correction for their vision.
Is your rifle accurate enough? Barrels do wear out over time. A rifle that is more than 40 years old could have fired enough rounds that it shoots larger or erratic groups. If it is newish and in good condition, what ammunition are you using? Barrels can be fussy, and will shoot large or erratic groups with brand X, or even some production lots. Try shooting several different brands/batches from a rest to see if this produces better groups.
When did you last clean the rifle? Clean barrels generally shoot better. Firing residue also clogs the bolt and breech, which makes ignition erratic.
Tim
I suggest to get a book - e.g. "MEC Ways of the Rifle 2009" - and study
it.
Personally I don't think there are equipment issues - I think they are in position (hold) or technique. Personally I shot 96, 97 (and the best target was 99) in winter coat, with sling choking my arm with exactly 40 years old rifle ;)
Now I have a jacket from the hands of Uwe Anschütz, and MEC sling, and thinking about new rifle, but I am 100% confident this alone will not make my scores really high. But - I will add more joy and confidence - this is very important too ;)
I assume that you are shooting ISSF rifle prone with sling, and then (in my opinion) it is quite easy to shoot 97 (but at the same time is quite hard to shoot 99+)...
The idea is make a natural comfortable position. Comfortable means the body is as much relaxed as possible. No tension, the rifle is completely supported by bones, not muscles. Breathing is calm and shallow, heartbeat is as you are laying on the ground relaxed(60?). Target is vertically in sight, on inhale aim moves down (as there is some tension appears), on exhale aim stands exactly on the target - now everything is relaxed, the only muscles that have some tension - trigger finger - gently pulling the last stage. As little effort as required to overcome the last stage of pull.
OK, this is at least what (as I think) is working for me.
In the beginning I think it is much more "yoga" style training, or some other style with focuses on breathing, relaxation, body awareness, etc. E.g. there must be some exercises like "Lay relaxed. Then on inhale - tense up only one leg. On exhale - relax completely.. Then other leg, arm, both legs, both arms, neck, chest, etc,etc.." And so on.
I got lucky - martial art school (!) that I attend is focusing a lot on this topic - and once I realized that I should apply that to shooting - learning how to distinguish muscle tension and start working on it - same day my scores went up from 93 to 97.
Here is some info on that: http://scrapyardfighting.blogspot.com/2 ... thing.html
Also a book about breathing and it has some exercises: http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalo ... cts_id=115
Also, I'd advice you another book - "Mental training in shooting"
from http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
I only started it, but I am already surpriced that it touches the same topics - relaxation, breathing, some yoga exercises, meditation, etc..
So I think everything here is pretty close.
And also "With Winning in Mind" from http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml as well. It might be more on competition-related mental training, but it is the same idea again - how to take control over yourself - body and mind.
So I here covered more inner topics. Hope it makes some sence for you and/or gives some ideas and directions.
it.
Personally I don't think there are equipment issues - I think they are in position (hold) or technique. Personally I shot 96, 97 (and the best target was 99) in winter coat, with sling choking my arm with exactly 40 years old rifle ;)
Now I have a jacket from the hands of Uwe Anschütz, and MEC sling, and thinking about new rifle, but I am 100% confident this alone will not make my scores really high. But - I will add more joy and confidence - this is very important too ;)
I assume that you are shooting ISSF rifle prone with sling, and then (in my opinion) it is quite easy to shoot 97 (but at the same time is quite hard to shoot 99+)...
The idea is make a natural comfortable position. Comfortable means the body is as much relaxed as possible. No tension, the rifle is completely supported by bones, not muscles. Breathing is calm and shallow, heartbeat is as you are laying on the ground relaxed(60?). Target is vertically in sight, on inhale aim moves down (as there is some tension appears), on exhale aim stands exactly on the target - now everything is relaxed, the only muscles that have some tension - trigger finger - gently pulling the last stage. As little effort as required to overcome the last stage of pull.
OK, this is at least what (as I think) is working for me.
In the beginning I think it is much more "yoga" style training, or some other style with focuses on breathing, relaxation, body awareness, etc. E.g. there must be some exercises like "Lay relaxed. Then on inhale - tense up only one leg. On exhale - relax completely.. Then other leg, arm, both legs, both arms, neck, chest, etc,etc.." And so on.
I got lucky - martial art school (!) that I attend is focusing a lot on this topic - and once I realized that I should apply that to shooting - learning how to distinguish muscle tension and start working on it - same day my scores went up from 93 to 97.
Here is some info on that: http://scrapyardfighting.blogspot.com/2 ... thing.html
Also a book about breathing and it has some exercises: http://www.russianmartialart.com/catalo ... cts_id=115
Also, I'd advice you another book - "Mental training in shooting"
from http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml
I only started it, but I am already surpriced that it touches the same topics - relaxation, breathing, some yoga exercises, meditation, etc..
So I think everything here is pretty close.
And also "With Winning in Mind" from http://www.pilkguns.com/books.shtml as well. It might be more on competition-related mental training, but it is the same idea again - how to take control over yourself - body and mind.
So I here covered more inner topics. Hope it makes some sence for you and/or gives some ideas and directions.
i have shooting issf prone 50 ft.
my equipment is decent, not great but good enough that i should be doing better. i havent been shooting long so i think i just need more practice. my jacket does fit.
im not using very good ammo so many ill try some wolf target or just buy a some eley.
i do seem to have a problem with the rifle leaning away from me. i almost have to push it the left and hold is to line up the sights. not sure if this is do to sling position or not.
my equipment is decent, not great but good enough that i should be doing better. i havent been shooting long so i think i just need more practice. my jacket does fit.
im not using very good ammo so many ill try some wolf target or just buy a some eley.
i do seem to have a problem with the rifle leaning away from me. i almost have to push it the left and hold is to line up the sights. not sure if this is do to sling position or not.
If you are shooting at 50ft, ammo choice becomes much less important. Most good quality standard velocity/subsonic cartridges should shoot well (don't use high-veolicty whizz-bang ammo, it's not as accurate).
Could you explain exactly what you mean by you have to push the rifle over and hold it to line up the sights?
You should not be pushing, or pulling the rifle onto aim. It should point naturally at the target. When shooting at multi-bull targets, you have to alter your position to bring the rifle to bear on each individual target. Altering where the rifle points can be done by pivoting about your left elbow (assuming a right-handed shooter) and moving your hips fractionally. Pushing or pulling the rifle onto aim will result in bad shots.
If you mean that the rifle needs to sit at an angle for you too see through the sights comfortable, this is another thing. Tilting the rifle is called canting, and is a common technique. Many shooters find the cheekpice too wide, and so canting the rifle will bring the sightline further left, towrds their eye.
Other thoughts are breathing technique, trigger, and aiming. Many shooters (not just beginners) spend too long aiming. A nice concentric sight picture, with the target dead centre looks lovely, but it's no good if you don't press the trigger! Holding your aim does not make shots better; it will actually make good shots bad, and bad shots worse.
Tim
Could you explain exactly what you mean by you have to push the rifle over and hold it to line up the sights?
You should not be pushing, or pulling the rifle onto aim. It should point naturally at the target. When shooting at multi-bull targets, you have to alter your position to bring the rifle to bear on each individual target. Altering where the rifle points can be done by pivoting about your left elbow (assuming a right-handed shooter) and moving your hips fractionally. Pushing or pulling the rifle onto aim will result in bad shots.
If you mean that the rifle needs to sit at an angle for you too see through the sights comfortable, this is another thing. Tilting the rifle is called canting, and is a common technique. Many shooters find the cheekpice too wide, and so canting the rifle will bring the sightline further left, towrds their eye.
Other thoughts are breathing technique, trigger, and aiming. Many shooters (not just beginners) spend too long aiming. A nice concentric sight picture, with the target dead centre looks lovely, but it's no good if you don't press the trigger! Holding your aim does not make shots better; it will actually make good shots bad, and bad shots worse.
Tim
Last edited by Tim S on Thu Jan 26, 2012 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sounds like the rifle is running across the palm of your left hand instead of going over the wrist - this is the most common reason I've come across for the rifle leaning away from you.jpd5184 wrote:i do seem to have a problem with the rifle leaning away from me. i almost have to push it the left and hold is to line up the sights. not sure if this is do to sling position or not.
Do you get pain in the outside of the left wrist (little finger side)?
Have a look here: http://www.targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?p=157455#157455
Ken.
Re: any tips to improve my scores
If I may be so bold, get yourself a coach. Practice will just reinforce the bad habits and using your unoptimised kit. A coach can evaluate your position, suggest changes for you to try and give you some quality training drills to perform to improve your performance.jpd5184 wrote:hello, i am consistently shooting in the high 80's and low 90's for smallbore prone shooting. This isnt terrible but i would like to improve my scores.
are there any small tips that you might have to improve my scores or do i just need more practice.
Rob.
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bugman1955
- Posts: 109
- Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:10 pm
ok thanks, i was shooting today and noticed what you said about the sling. it was coming from the inside of my left arm. im quessing this was pulling the gun towards me causing it to lean away from me.
next time i shoot ill try rotating the sling so its more direct to the handstop.
thanks everyone for your help.
next time i shoot ill try rotating the sling so its more direct to the handstop.
thanks everyone for your help.
The rifle probably wasn't leaning because your sling pulled from the inside of the arm. The leaning is much more likely to be caused by resting the rifle too far out on your hand, rather than over the heel, or because the sling was a little too long.
Having the sling pull from the inside isn't a good idea though. The brachial artery runs along the inside of the arm, so if the sling pulls against here it can compress the vessel, restricting blood flow and causing discomfort/pain. It's much better to have the sling pull straight, i.e. against the back of your arm (between the triceps and deltoid). You will need to rotate the sling to acheive this; normally the strap will point from the front of the bicep, and will pass over the centre of the elbow joint when you are in position (providing your left elbow is properly placed).
Tim
Having the sling pull from the inside isn't a good idea though. The brachial artery runs along the inside of the arm, so if the sling pulls against here it can compress the vessel, restricting blood flow and causing discomfort/pain. It's much better to have the sling pull straight, i.e. against the back of your arm (between the triceps and deltoid). You will need to rotate the sling to acheive this; normally the strap will point from the front of the bicep, and will pass over the centre of the elbow joint when you are in position (providing your left elbow is properly placed).
Tim
Last edited by Tim S on Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There may be another possibility as to the reason of the rifle moving away from you. Your elbow may be to far to the left. When you get down in position, stretch out your left arm all the way (within reason, not with a painful stretch). After you have hooked into your sling, take your right hand away from the stock, and see where the rifle wants to lean. If it wants to fall away from you to the right, your elbow may be to far to the left. In this possible scenario, move your elbow right, or closer to the rifle. Otherwise this statement is in a position of ignorance based on the information you have given, just thought I would make the suggestion.
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WesternGrizzly
- Posts: 278
- Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:43 pm
I disagree with sling placement. I have been taught that the best placement of the sling is so that it pulls from the center. with equal pressure from the inside and outside. But that being said, you defiantly don't want it pulling from the inside.bugman1955 wrote:Make sure that your sling is pulling from the outside of your arm not the inside. Pulling from the inside will cause your rifle to fall to the right.
Matt
listen to WITH WINNING IN MIND. Its an audio book by olympic gold medalist Lanny Bassham.
One proven method would be mental imaging. Go through 20 shots or so without your rifle and equipment etc. Go through your preshot sequence, and feel your position, making sure it feels right. And because its like you to shoot a 10, every shot you shoot will be a 10.
Remember: shooting is 10% physical, 90% mental.
One proven method would be mental imaging. Go through 20 shots or so without your rifle and equipment etc. Go through your preshot sequence, and feel your position, making sure it feels right. And because its like you to shoot a 10, every shot you shoot will be a 10.
Remember: shooting is 10% physical, 90% mental.
While I agree that "With Winning In Mind" is well worth reading (or listening to), if you're shooting a 90 average then I'd suggest that your problems are technical rather than mental.
When I started I got Ralf Horneber"s "Olympic Target Rifle Shooting" and read it many times. If you can't get a coach, get a book.
Dry firing is a good thing to practice (and cheap).
Movement is the enemy.
If you're moving at all when the shot goes, the result will be uncertain.
If the rifle moves as a result of squeezing the trigger, the result will be uncertain.
(Also, if you're using very cheap ammo, the result will be uncertain.)
You need to be able to COMPLETELY relax the support arm, the trigger arm, the shoulders, neck and just about everything else.
You need to shoot with the lungs comfortably empty.
Process is all important.
A good routine is get into might be :
Get in position and roughly aim.
Close eyes,
Relax,
Breathe In,
Relax,
Breathe Out,
Relax,
Open Eyes,
Check Aim & Adjust if required.
Repeat the above until the rifle comes up on aim naturally.
Then take a small breath, let it out while watching the sights come up onto the target, settle and if all looks good, squeeze the trigger.
And don't dither - if you've been staring down the sights for 7 or 8 seconds then what you're "seeing" may also be also uncertain. Have the patience to break and start again.
Finally, follow through. Watch the recoil and call each shot before looking down the scope.
Easy to write but not so easy to do.
Ken.
When I started I got Ralf Horneber"s "Olympic Target Rifle Shooting" and read it many times. If you can't get a coach, get a book.
Dry firing is a good thing to practice (and cheap).
Movement is the enemy.
If you're moving at all when the shot goes, the result will be uncertain.
If the rifle moves as a result of squeezing the trigger, the result will be uncertain.
(Also, if you're using very cheap ammo, the result will be uncertain.)
You need to be able to COMPLETELY relax the support arm, the trigger arm, the shoulders, neck and just about everything else.
You need to shoot with the lungs comfortably empty.
Process is all important.
A good routine is get into might be :
Get in position and roughly aim.
Close eyes,
Relax,
Breathe In,
Relax,
Breathe Out,
Relax,
Open Eyes,
Check Aim & Adjust if required.
Repeat the above until the rifle comes up on aim naturally.
Then take a small breath, let it out while watching the sights come up onto the target, settle and if all looks good, squeeze the trigger.
And don't dither - if you've been staring down the sights for 7 or 8 seconds then what you're "seeing" may also be also uncertain. Have the patience to break and start again.
Finally, follow through. Watch the recoil and call each shot before looking down the scope.
Easy to write but not so easy to do.
Ken.
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bpscCheney
- Posts: 187
- Joined: Thu Jan 19, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Wisconsin
The above poster kind of hinted to it but I'll flat out say it.
Find your NATURAL POINT OF AIM or NPA.
If you can lay there and the sights are dead center there is nigh on no physical reasons why you should miss just remember to keep everything the same each time.
When I shoot I also have a sequence
1. Find NPA
2. Breathe in and out keeping yourself relaxed maybe even close your eyes.
3. Line up your sights
4. Take up trigger slack
5. Exhale until your lungs are comfortable but empty
6. Pull the trigger in between your heartbeats
Now this is the most important step
7. Lay perfectly still until you can say your name to yourself slowly
This is called follow through and if you eject your brass as soon as you pull the trigger you will more than likely jerk the rest of your gun sending off flyers.
8. Repeat.
Now there are many things that are small that can screw up your prone scores just remember if you start changing things in between shots almost anything can and likely will go wrong.
But better ammo isn't truly necessary as I can shoot mid to high 90's with CCI Standard Velocity ammo out of a Anschütz model 1413 from 1974.
Every gun is different and each will prefer different ammo. I.E. I shoot the same with $20 Eley ammo as I do with $3 CCI ammo I would suggest buying 50 of each type you wish to try and see how your rifle likes it.
Find your NATURAL POINT OF AIM or NPA.
If you can lay there and the sights are dead center there is nigh on no physical reasons why you should miss just remember to keep everything the same each time.
When I shoot I also have a sequence
1. Find NPA
2. Breathe in and out keeping yourself relaxed maybe even close your eyes.
3. Line up your sights
4. Take up trigger slack
5. Exhale until your lungs are comfortable but empty
6. Pull the trigger in between your heartbeats
Now this is the most important step
7. Lay perfectly still until you can say your name to yourself slowly
This is called follow through and if you eject your brass as soon as you pull the trigger you will more than likely jerk the rest of your gun sending off flyers.
8. Repeat.
Now there are many things that are small that can screw up your prone scores just remember if you start changing things in between shots almost anything can and likely will go wrong.
But better ammo isn't truly necessary as I can shoot mid to high 90's with CCI Standard Velocity ammo out of a Anschütz model 1413 from 1974.
Every gun is different and each will prefer different ammo. I.E. I shoot the same with $20 Eley ammo as I do with $3 CCI ammo I would suggest buying 50 of each type you wish to try and see how your rifle likes it.