Savage mkI vs CM-2 vs 1903
Moderators: pilkguns, Marcus, m1963, David Levene, Spencer
Savage mkI vs CM-2 vs 1903
I know this is comparing apples, oranges and bananas, but they're all introductory rifles. Any comments? Which would be the most worth upgrading from stock? I have read here that people have modified the CMs and the Savages, but I haven't seen much about the 1903s.
I started target shooting with a Savage Mark II, and if I had to do it all over again I would skip it and start with a true target rifle. While you can get a model with aperture sights, the stock is not adjustable at all, and it lacks a handstop rail; the comb is also very low, making a good cheek weld difficult. The trigger is also not great and relatively heavy. I've tried and liked the CM-2, and I certainly know plenty of people who started on them initially and went on to do great things. I would get one myself, but at this point I'm saving for an Anschutz.
Part of this is what do want to do or upgrade toward?
The Savage is more oriented toward plinking or light game and with appropriate sights might be useable in some of the sporter classes. (I am not a sporter shooter so that is a guess on my part) I am not a fan of their "Accutrigger".
The CM-2 and 1903 are both ready to go target rifles. I have read great things about the accuracy and trigger of the CM-2 but being Russian there are issues with getting accessories to fit. For this reason you see more discussions about modifying CM-2s to accept accessories designed for European target rifles. The 1903 is already made to accept the European accessories and has a decent (out to 50m) barrel and respectable trigger, no modifications required. The 1903 is more expensive out of the box but if you spent lots of money modifying the CM-2 to take the European stuff the costs might even out.
'Dude
The Savage is more oriented toward plinking or light game and with appropriate sights might be useable in some of the sporter classes. (I am not a sporter shooter so that is a guess on my part) I am not a fan of their "Accutrigger".
The CM-2 and 1903 are both ready to go target rifles. I have read great things about the accuracy and trigger of the CM-2 but being Russian there are issues with getting accessories to fit. For this reason you see more discussions about modifying CM-2s to accept accessories designed for European target rifles. The 1903 is already made to accept the European accessories and has a decent (out to 50m) barrel and respectable trigger, no modifications required. The 1903 is more expensive out of the box but if you spent lots of money modifying the CM-2 to take the European stuff the costs might even out.
'Dude
I guess I'm just like a lot of people wanting to get back started in 3p shoting with no aspirations of competeing on a national level. The idea is to get started with a rifle under 1000 bucks. I have seen on this site where people have modified the Savage with custom stocks. The CM-2 seems like solid rifles that require less modification (front rail changes, cheek pieces, etc). The 1903 is more complete, but it seems as though the overwhelming responce is to save your money and get a 1907 in a 1913 stock, which is more money than I want to spend. The idea of a smaller initial buy in with an eye to later upgrades is easier to handle money wise.
So I guess, I'm asking what is the biggest limitation to each gun. The CM-2s seems like they might have the best action and trigger of the bunch, but I don't know if that's true. I would guess that even after upgrades the Savage would be the least satisfying. I know that a used 1903 can be had for about 500 bucks, but there seems to be little that can be done to improve it. There is another thread about how much you would pay for an Olympic quality gun, but have seen the huge volume of theads on beginers or intermediate rifles, that is the least represented price point on the market.
Cheers, Philip
So I guess, I'm asking what is the biggest limitation to each gun. The CM-2s seems like they might have the best action and trigger of the bunch, but I don't know if that's true. I would guess that even after upgrades the Savage would be the least satisfying. I know that a used 1903 can be had for about 500 bucks, but there seems to be little that can be done to improve it. There is another thread about how much you would pay for an Olympic quality gun, but have seen the huge volume of theads on beginers or intermediate rifles, that is the least represented price point on the market.
Cheers, Philip
OK ... another $0.02 here .... if I was to place them in the order that >>I personally like<< it would be:
1907 - Best action/ trigger system and BBL ... easy to upgrade stocks (but pricy) Intermediate to advanced gun ... remember the 1912 that I like is simply a 1907 action/trigger/bbl in a more advanced stock
1903 - Less expensive action, but a very good trigger and bbl ... 1903s I've seen have shot well out to 100m ... usually performs well with just about any decent ammo (STD+ and up). For sure a great performer at 50ft. A beginner to intermediate gun. My daughter borrowed one years ago to start in smallbore and qualified (50ft) and shot in JOs (50m)w/ it.
CM-2 ... While I like this gun, it is a beginner gun and to improve it you must be willing to invest and cut on it a bit ... we've added rails from Daisy air rifles and extension tubes from Scott Medesha. The triggers can be worked on, but are "adjustable" only in the simplest form of the word. Had a shooter two years ago qualify and fire in JOs with one of these and did very decent considering it was her 1st time in smallbore. Maybe not quite as good at 100m as a 1903, but it's real close ... probably the fact that the bbl is not as sturdy as the 1903. Seems to be a bit tricker with ammo ... cheap stuff will not shoot well, but we shoot almost exclusively STD+ in these except for 50m and 100m matches where they seem to like the Eley (Yellow Box) Target. (While I was testing one of our shooters newest 1903's last weekend, I easily cleaned a 50ft USA-50 target with STD+)
In short, there is nothing wrong with getting any of these guns, if you have a good set of positions you'll do well ... the better you become, the more advanced rifle you'll probably want.
If you are looking to move up later, the 1903 will probably be the best bet in terms of resale "desirement factor" there between the CM-2 & 1903.
Get the one that best fits your budget for say, the next 2 years, and get it out on the line....
1907 - Best action/ trigger system and BBL ... easy to upgrade stocks (but pricy) Intermediate to advanced gun ... remember the 1912 that I like is simply a 1907 action/trigger/bbl in a more advanced stock
1903 - Less expensive action, but a very good trigger and bbl ... 1903s I've seen have shot well out to 100m ... usually performs well with just about any decent ammo (STD+ and up). For sure a great performer at 50ft. A beginner to intermediate gun. My daughter borrowed one years ago to start in smallbore and qualified (50ft) and shot in JOs (50m)w/ it.
CM-2 ... While I like this gun, it is a beginner gun and to improve it you must be willing to invest and cut on it a bit ... we've added rails from Daisy air rifles and extension tubes from Scott Medesha. The triggers can be worked on, but are "adjustable" only in the simplest form of the word. Had a shooter two years ago qualify and fire in JOs with one of these and did very decent considering it was her 1st time in smallbore. Maybe not quite as good at 100m as a 1903, but it's real close ... probably the fact that the bbl is not as sturdy as the 1903. Seems to be a bit tricker with ammo ... cheap stuff will not shoot well, but we shoot almost exclusively STD+ in these except for 50m and 100m matches where they seem to like the Eley (Yellow Box) Target. (While I was testing one of our shooters newest 1903's last weekend, I easily cleaned a 50ft USA-50 target with STD+)
In short, there is nothing wrong with getting any of these guns, if you have a good set of positions you'll do well ... the better you become, the more advanced rifle you'll probably want.
If you are looking to move up later, the 1903 will probably be the best bet in terms of resale "desirement factor" there between the CM-2 & 1903.
Get the one that best fits your budget for say, the next 2 years, and get it out on the line....
Last edited by jhmartin on Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I went through the same thing, wanted a rifle to start with and upgrade as I went along. Which I did. I went with a CM-2... I just happen to have a thing for the russian rifles. It shoots very well. I am very happy with it. But I have the time in the winter to tinker and tips to supply the funds.
Here's a recent pic:
That being said it will cost you less in both the short and long run to start with an Anschutz. Right out of the box you will find you will want to change out the rail so that it will accept standard accessories, handstop, sling, bipod etc. Both the front and rear sights are non-standard. So when you would like to add an adjustable iris to the rear sight and change out front sights you will be tinkering with something. I had to have a tap made to add an iris to the sight $$$. I enjoy tinkering but I like being out shooting alot better.
As the saying goes cry once and be done with it... get to shooting alot of 10s.
As another thought, maybe the reasons you don't see the upgrade threada on the Anschutz is it doesn't take alot of effort because they conform to the standards and it's so easy it's not worth mentioning.
Normally I'm somewhat a russian cheerleader... Just picked up my first high power Russian... but I'm also realistic for most people dealing with the frustration of non standard parts is not the most fun way to spend your time. Thankfully that is done on my CM-2 and now I just get to go out and shoot. :)
Sean
Here's a recent pic:
That being said it will cost you less in both the short and long run to start with an Anschutz. Right out of the box you will find you will want to change out the rail so that it will accept standard accessories, handstop, sling, bipod etc. Both the front and rear sights are non-standard. So when you would like to add an adjustable iris to the rear sight and change out front sights you will be tinkering with something. I had to have a tap made to add an iris to the sight $$$. I enjoy tinkering but I like being out shooting alot better.
As the saying goes cry once and be done with it... get to shooting alot of 10s.
As another thought, maybe the reasons you don't see the upgrade threada on the Anschutz is it doesn't take alot of effort because they conform to the standards and it's so easy it's not worth mentioning.
Normally I'm somewhat a russian cheerleader... Just picked up my first high power Russian... but I'm also realistic for most people dealing with the frustration of non standard parts is not the most fun way to spend your time. Thankfully that is done on my CM-2 and now I just get to go out and shoot. :)
Sean
Thanks guys,
What you say makes sense to me. Part of the problem is that I have a great number of hobies. Any money put into one, is money taken from another. Large outlays of cash are hard to come by so small initial investments with the idea of upgrading is appealing. But I also know that sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, I've spent money on undersized things and regretted it in the past.
It seems as though unless I just want to make a project for myself I should stay away for the MK Is. Then the question becomes should I get a new CM-2 or for about the same money a used 1903. I have no problems with the changing a rail on a CM-2, that seems like a 1/2 hr project on a router table, sights and trigger are diffrent stories.
By the way, those are both fine looking rifles!
What you say makes sense to me. Part of the problem is that I have a great number of hobies. Any money put into one, is money taken from another. Large outlays of cash are hard to come by so small initial investments with the idea of upgrading is appealing. But I also know that sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, I've spent money on undersized things and regretted it in the past.
It seems as though unless I just want to make a project for myself I should stay away for the MK Is. Then the question becomes should I get a new CM-2 or for about the same money a used 1903. I have no problems with the changing a rail on a CM-2, that seems like a 1/2 hr project on a router table, sights and trigger are diffrent stories.
By the way, those are both fine looking rifles!
Taking what Ptarmigan said ... unless you want a "project rifle" you are probably best suited going for a 1903.
The reason I was willing to make mods on our CM-2s was I was doing 4 in parallel so I was able to split the time/labor/materials across the 4 guns.
Now, that being said, if you are cool with the CM-2's sights, rail (they supply a slung & handstop for that rail), and accessories, it's a great starter rifle.
If you want later to add better sights, then the 1903 is easier to accomodate.
The reason I was willing to make mods on our CM-2s was I was doing 4 in parallel so I was able to split the time/labor/materials across the 4 guns.
Now, that being said, if you are cool with the CM-2's sights, rail (they supply a slung & handstop for that rail), and accessories, it's a great starter rifle.
If you want later to add better sights, then the 1903 is easier to accomodate.